Muslim Demographics « Tiny Frog

Muslim Demographics

May 3, 2009 by tinyfrog

Common Sense Atheism linked to a video the other day about fertility rates in Europe and in Muslim countries. The point of the video is to say that Europe will be predominantly Muslim within fifty years or less, as a result of low birthrates among native Europeans and high birthrates among Muslim immigrants. I’ve seen these arguments over the past few years. It’s stuff promoted mainly by American Right-wing Christians, often with dire warnings that Europe will be Islamicized within 50 years, and America will stand alone in the world. For example, here’s a sample:

If there is anything that should make Americans’ blood run cold about immigration, it is the sight of Europe—and Britain, the home of Western civilization—being buried by millions of Muslim colonists. Europe is just hoping against hope that Islam isn’t going to explode into massive rioting (or worse), or impose total cultural Islamification.
…
Now the triumphs of Tours and Vienna are being trampled by immigrants, entering mostly legally. It’s a wonder the Muslims bother with terrorism at all when demography is working so well for them.

Europe’s swirl down the toilet bowl is little reported in this country largely because the Main Stream Media is not interested in showing it. The top media elites are still stuck on multiculturalism. But the European experience shows what a bogus ideology that is. (Source)

So, how accurate is this video?

muslimdemographics1
Claim: “Historically, no culture has ever reversed a 1.9 fertility rate.”
They provide no source for this claim. However, birth rates do vary over time, and have increased. For example, here’s an image of France’s population over the past two centuries. As you can see, the population size barely changes between 1890 and 1945. Since 1945, the population has grown by 50%. The current fertility rate in France is about 2 children per person.

Wikipedia states:

After 1947 however, France suddenly underwent a demographic recovery that no one could have foreseen. It is a fact that in the 1930s the French government, alarmed by the decline of France’s population, had passed laws to boost the birth rate, giving state benefits to families with children. Nonetheless, no one can quite satisfactorily explain this sudden and unexpected recovery in the demography of France, which was often portrayed as a “miracle” inside France. This demographic recovery was again atypical in the Western World, in the sense that although the rest of the Western World experienced a baby boom immediately after the war, the baby boom in France was much stronger, and above all it lasted longer than in most other countries of the Western World (the United States being one of the few exceptions). In the 1950s and 1960s France enjoyed a population growth of 1% a year, which is the highest growth in the history of France, not even matched in the best periods of the 18th or 19th centuries.

Claim: “A rate of 1.3: impossible to reverse… There is no economic model that can sustain itself during that time.”
It’s true that declining birth rates cause a lot of problems for nations; it’s difficult for workers to pay enough taxes to support the retired generation. A lot of countries (including east-asian countries like Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan) are very worried about this problem.

muslimdemographics2
These numbers are almost right. It’s true that these nations are declining in population. According to nationmaster (which took it’s numbers from the CIA World Factbook), the actual fertility rates are:

France	1.98
England	1.66
Greece	1.36
Germany	1.41
Italy	1.3
Spain	1.3

It’s also worth noting that the fertility rates of these nations have been rising slightly over the past five years. Here’s a look at the historical data:

Spain, historical fertility rates:

2003	1.26
2004	1.27
2005	1.28
2006	1.28
2007	1.29
2008	1.3

France, historical fertility rates: (*note: France reversed a fertility rate that dropped below 1.9)

2003	1.85
2004	1.85
2005	1.85
2006	1.84
2007	1.98
2008	1.98

Germany, historical fertility rates:

2003	1.37
2004	1.38
2005	1.39
2006	1.39
2007	1.4
2008	1.41

Italy, historical fertility rates:

2003	1.26
2004	1.27
2005	1.28
2006	1.28
2007	1.29
2008	1.3

(According to the nationmaster numbers, the UK’s and Greece’ fertility rate stayed relatively constant across the 2003-2008 time period.)

muslimdemographics3
1.3-1.5 sounds approximately right. The highest fertility rate in Europe is 2.02 (Albania), and eastern Europe has some of the lowest fertility rates (Poland 1.27, Ukraine 1.25, Lithuania 1.22).

muslimdemographics4
Claim: “France: 1.8 Children per family, Muslims: 8.1.”
They list of source for this claim, but it’s too small to read. This claim is almost certainly false. First, there isn’t a country in the whole world that has a fertility rate of 8 children, so I doubt that millions of Muslims in France’s are having that many children.

While it’s true that many Muslim nations have high fertility rates (Yemen 6.41, Gaza Strip 5.19, Saudi Arabia 3.89), not all of them do. While I have no source for Muslim birthrates in France, I do know where most of France’s immigrants come from: they come from France’s former colonies. Here’s a map of French immigration by nation:

You can quickly pick out that France’s Muslim immigration comes mainly from four countries: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Turkey.

What are the fertility rates in these countries?

Morocco	2.57
Algeria	1.82
Tunisia	1.73
Turkey	1.87

Now, it looks very suspicious when they claim French Muslims are averaging 8.1 children per person. In fact, the birthrates in their original countries are lower than birthrates in France. I have a hard time believing that they suddenly become hyperfertile when they live in France.

I had actually read an article a few years ago (again, by an Christian-Right author). He talked about how he met a Palestinian woman living in Paris who was raising her 6 children. He then implied that all French Muslims were having this many children. Of course, that was a huge generalization. It’s true that Palestinians (on average) have a lot of children, but it’s false to claim that most Muslims living in France (most of them not from Palestine) were having this many children. Yet, he tried to slide this claim past his readers.

muslimdemographics5
Claim: “In the Netherlands, 50% of all newborns are Muslim.”
That same article I read a few years ago claimed that 50% of all newborns within a particular Dutch city were Muslim (which may or may not be accurate). I have to wonder if that claim was generalized to “In the Netherlands, 50% of all newborns are Muslim.”

There are approximately 1 million Muslims in the Netherlands, a nation of 16.6 million people. So Muslims makeup about 6% of the total population. Yet, we’re supposed to believe 50% of the children born in the Netherlands are Muslim? The fertility rate in the Netherlands is 1.66 children per person. Mathematically, Muslims in the Netherlands would need to have 26 children to makeup 50% of the births in the country.

Further, if we look at the countries of origin of these Muslims, we find that 2/3rds immigrated from Turkey (1.87 fertility rate) or Morocco (2.57 fertility rate).

muslimdemographics6
Claim: “In only 15 years, half of the population of the Netherlands will be Muslim.”
It makes my head hurt to figure out how 1 million Muslims will outnumber 15.6 million non-Muslims in 15 years.

muslimdemographics7
Claim: “In Russia, there are over 23 million Muslims, that’s 1 out of 5 Russians.”
According to Wikipedia:

According to the most recent estimates by the R&F Agency, there are more than 20 million officially self-identified Muslims in Russia, a number that has risen by 40% in the last 15 years, though no more than 6 million are truly orthodox. Roman Silantyev, a Russian Islamologist has estimated that there are only between 7 and 9 million people who practise Islam in Russia, and that the rest are only Muslims by ethnicity.

Also, Russia’s population is 140 million. Even if “23 million muslims” was accurate, that’s 16.4%, not 1 out of 5 (or 20%).

muslimdemographics8
Claim: “Currently in Belgium, 25% of the population and 50% of all newborns are Muslim.”
Wikipedia states:

An 2008 estimation shows that 6% of the Belgian population, about 628,751, is Muslim (98% Sunni). Muslims cover 25.5% of the population of Brussels, 4.0% of Wallonia and 3.9% of Flanders.

Maybe they mixed up “Brussels” and “Belgium”. Regardless, they inflated the percentage of Muslims in Belgium from 6% to 25%.

Again, we see the same pattern of immigration as we saw in the Netherlands – 2/3rds are Moroccans and Turkish immigrants – whose home countries have relatively low birthrates (2.57 and 1.87, respectively).

muslimdemographics9
Claim: “1/3rd of all European children will be born to Muslim families by 2025, just 17 years away.”
That doesn’t seem very likely considering that Muslims currently makeup “4 percent of the European Union’s population” (Source). This particular claim about “1/3rd of all European children” appears to come from the Right-wing Brussel’s Journal.

muslimdemographics10
Claim: “The German Government, the first to talk about this publicly, recently released a public saying, ‘the fall in the German population can no longer be stopped. Its downward spiral is no longer reversible… It will be a Muslim state by 2050.”
Considering that Muslims makeup 4.0% of the German population, that statement seems over the top. More than 90% of them are Turkish (fertility rate in Turkey: 1.87). A quick google search credits Walter Rademacher, vice-president of the German statistics office, with the quote.

So, do you believe that the “German Government” issued that statement? Are you wondering what Walter Rademacher actually said?

BERLIN, Germany, November 9, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Germany’s downward spiral in population is no longer reversible, the country’s federal statistics office said Tuesday. The birthrate has dropped so low that immigration numbers cannot compensate.

“The fall in the population can no longer be stopped,” vice-president Walter Rademacher with the Federal Statistics Office said, reported Agence France-Presse.

Germany has the lowest birthrate in Europe, with an average of 1.36 children per woman. Despite government incentives to encourage larger families, the population is dropping rapidly and that trend will continue, with an expected loss of as much as 12 million by 2050. That would mean about a 15 percent drop from the country’s current population of 82.4 million, the German news source Deutsche Welle reported today.
…
Germany has one of the largest populations of Muslim immigrants in Western Europe, with a Muslim community of over 3 million. That trend is expected to continue, leading some demographic trend-watchers to warn that the country is well on the way to becoming a Muslim state by 2050, Deutsche Welle reported.

The [Right Wing] Brussels Journal reported last month that one third of all European children will be born to Muslim families by 2025. There are an estimated 50 million Muslims living in Europe today–that number is expected to double over the next twenty years.

(Source)

Wow. There’s two major distortions here:
(1) They credit the “Germany Federal Statistics Office” with the statement that “[Germany] will be a Muslim state by 2050″, when it was actually a statement made by a vague group identified as “some demographic trend-watchers”. Immediately, in the next paragraph, they mention the right-wing Brussels Journal – leading me to suspect that they are the “demographic trend-watchers”.
(2) The quote was twisted from “is well on the way to becoming a Muslim state by 2050″ into “It will be a Muslim state by 2050″.

muslimdemographics11
Claim: “There are currently 52 million Muslims in Europe. The German government said that number is expected to double in the next 20 years to 104 million.”
The EU population is 491 million, 4% (19.6 million) of which are Muslim (Source).

muslimdemographics12
Claim: “In the United States, the current fertility rate of American citizens is 1.6. With the influx of the latino nations, the rate increases to 2.11; the bare minimum needed to sustain a culture.”
Considering that latinos makeup only 13% of the US population, it’s hard to believe they can single-handedly bring-up the fertility rate from 1.6 to 2.11.

Looking up actual data (1, 2) reveals this fertility rate for American women (2004):

White	2.05
Black	2.03
American Indian	1.73
Asian	1.89
Hispanic	2.82
Total	2.04

(I think the “White” category includes “non-hispanic white” and “hispanic white” into the same category. If that’s true, then the non-hispanic white fertility rate would be around 1.8-1.9.)

muslimdemographics13
Claim: “Today, there are over 9 million [muslims in the United States]“.
Reality? No one really knows. Estimates vary between 1.1 million and 8 million.

muslimdemographics14
Not very likely.

This wasn’t specifically argued in the video, but I should also add that the fertility rates among Muslims (in their own countries) is also declining.

For example:

Saudi Arabia, historical fertility rates:

2003	6.15 (* is this accurate?)
2004	4.11
2005	4.05
2006	4
2007	3.94
2008	3.89

And the three largest Muslim countries:

Indonesia, historical fertility rates:

2003	2.5
2004	2.47
2005	2.44
2006	2.4
2007	2.38
2008	2.34

Pakistan, historical fertility rates:

2003	4.1
2004	4.29
2005	4.14
2006	4
2007	3.71
2008	3.73

Bangladesh, historical fertility rates:

2003	3.17
2004	3.15
2005	3.13
2006	3.11
2007	3.09
2008	3.08

And let’s not forget that some Muslim countries have already fallen below the replacement number of 2.11 (and, supposedly, below the mythical 1.9 fertility rate that the video says is very, very bad). When you look at the three most populous countries of the Middle East (Egypt, 79 million; Turkey, 70 million; Iran, 69 million), you find that Turkey and Iran have already dropped below a fertility rate of 2.0. Egypt recently dropped below a fertility rate of 3.0, and the Egyptian government is aiming to get it down to 2.0 within 8 years. All three are experiencing a decline in their fertility rates.

Egypt, historical fertility rates:

2003	3.02
2004	2.95
2005	2.88
2006	2.83
2007	2.77
2008	2.72

Turkey, historical fertility rates:

2003	2.03
2004	1.98
2005	1.94
2006	1.92
2007	1.89
2008	1.87

Iran, historical fertility rates:

2003	1.99
2004	1.93
2005	1.82
2006	1.8
2007	1.71
2008	1.71

Posted in Politics, Propaganda, Religion | 142 Comments

142 Responses

on May 3, 2009 at 10:47 am | Reply jonolan

While their numbers are exaggerated, your premise of basing expecting birthrates of Muslim immigrants upon their native birthrates is also flawed. Infant mortality is calculated into the birthrate figures; if mortality is lower is Europe than where they come from, their birthrate would be higher.
- on July 30, 2009 at 3:34 am | Reply DocR
  
  jonolan, the video claims that the muslim birthrate in France is 8.1. This isn’t an exaggeration, it’s an outright lie.
  
  Imagine what you’re saying is true and that in France -where infant mortality is supposedly lower- they have as many attempted births as they do back home. Imagine for argument’s sake that France has ZERO infant mortality. That means they attempt 8.1 births per woman, all successful. Now, if they were in Morocco (birthrate 2.57) and had 8.1 attempted births per woman, that means that, on average, each woman has over 5 infants dying at (or soon after) birth!!! THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS. The actual infant mortality rate in Morocco is ~40 deaths for every 1000 live births (do the math).
  
  Moreover, people are inclined to have a certain number of children which is not related to the infant mortality rate. If they wanted to have 8 children per family in a country with a ridiculously high mortality rate, they would just get pregnant a lot more often (i.e. more attempts). It is FAR MORE LOGICAL to assume that in Morocco they attempt to have between 2-3 children, and if they immigrate to a country with lower mortality rates, they will simply stop getting pregnant once they reach the desired number.
  - on July 30, 2009 at 11:09 am jonolan
    
    I was only pointing out that both the video and tinyfrog’s response to it were based on flawed data and suppositions.
    
    Yours are as well actually. You assume that the Muslims don’t want more than 2-3 children and not 8.
- on August 2, 2009 at 3:51 pm | Reply DocR
  
  Jonolan,
  
  You’re ignoring the numbers I gave you and you didn’t do the math (it was rhetorical, but I guess I have to do it).
  
  FACT: The actual infant mortality rate in Morocco is ~40 deaths for every 1000 live births.
  
  That means that, on average, if a woman in Morocco were to attempt to have 1040 babies, 40 of them would die. A less than 4% chance that a child will die at (or soon after) birth for any given birth attempt.
  
  Supposing a woman would normally give birth from 18 to 45 years of age, and that she can only have 1 child every 1.5 years, she could have -at most- 18 children. Hell, let’s make it even more rare to account for unexpected events (illnesses, whatever) – she can have 1 child every 2 years, giving her a maximum of 13.5 children (on average). On average, 0.5 of these children would die, given the infant mortality rate in Morocco. That leaves her with a potential of having 13 children.
  
  You think if she wanted 8 children, she couldn’t pull it off EASILY (and with 5 attempts to spare…)?
  
  FACT: The fertility rate in Morocco is 2.57, meaning that families actually have many fewer children than they could, based on the mortality rate.
  
  You mentioned the infant mortality rate as the reason why there would be a discrepancy between fertility rate at home and in a western country. I’ve now demonstrated -with actual figures- that this does not nearly account for such a huge difference (2.57 to 8). Your claim is simply not reasonable.
on May 3, 2009 at 1:02 pm | Reply Luke

tinyfrog,

You are amazing. Thanks for all your hard work!
on May 3, 2009 at 1:02 pm | Reply Common Sense Atheism » The Muslim Dark Ages

[...] tinyfrog’s analysis of these numbers is here. Conclusion: Most of the numbers are just plain wrong. As I should have expected, the video is [...]
on May 3, 2009 at 5:51 pm | Reply B-U-F

Good work!

I do believe the fertility rate for muslims in socialistic western countries is higher than in their home country. The fact that they are paid well will make them have more children (like in Germany the social benefit is 164 euro per child and they pay your salary in the first 14 months for every child. The pay even a lot more (300 euro per child extra) if you succeed to have your next child within a certain period of time and in that case the social benefit per child goes also up to 195 euro for the fourth child. All these benefits are paid net, no tax. Source (Dutch): http://www.droomhuisduitsland.com/informatie/kinderbijslag )
on May 3, 2009 at 6:20 pm | Reply B-U-F

…and these amounts are per month!
on May 3, 2009 at 7:04 pm | Reply Tom

Thanks for the hard work and scrutinizing, here.

“I have a hard time believing that they [immigrants] suddenly become hyperfertile when they live in France.” Ah, you underestimate French men and the allure of French women!

While jonolan makes an interesting observation that infant mortality is lower in Europe, and that will make fertility rates from their home countries even higher, I think using their home rates is probably the best predictor. In fact, fertility rates could be lower in the new country than in their home countries.

The term “culture” is used a lot in the video, promoting the fear that the original culture will be lost to immigrants. The immigrant profile has to be more complex than trying to bring their culture to a new land. In many cases, they are fleeing their home countries and purposefully shedding some of that culture. At the same time, in their new environment, they may want to assimilate. In fact, a country’s economy, government, policies, and culture already in place demand that immigrants adopt. I can see where immigrants would be more likely to adopt the new culture than to infiltrate their own.

There are scares of Latinos replacing “American” culture. Indeed, they have extensive media networks and neighborhoods. While I see a lot of Mexican pride on display in Denver (and like many Americans will take the opportunity to partake in a Mexican libation in two days) these 2nd and 3rd generation Mexicans speak English as their primary language and seem to associate themselves as “American” over “Mexican”.

Point is, the demographic of the Muslims immigrating to other countries may be different than the demographic of Muslims remaining in the country of origin. Furthermore, the idea that these immigrants will instill their culture at the expense of the existing culture is fear mongering and ignorant. I would think immigrants would be trying to borrow the best of both cultures as best they can while simply just trying to make ends meet. It’s racist and alarmist to assume the culture we cultivate will be unappreciated by Muslims out to infiltrate the world.
on May 3, 2009 at 7:31 pm | Reply What I did May 3rd - Eddie Current

[...] Muslim Demographics — 5:37am via Google Reader Racism pretending to be science. Always annoying and [...]
on May 3, 2009 at 10:44 pm | Reply TheBlackViewFromAmsterdam

Tiny Frog, amazing work, kudos and it made me feel slightly better.

I also don’t think you can just take the birthrate of the home countries as a straight predictor for the birthrate in the new countries. Immigrants, from Americans to Turks, cling to traditions to the point over exaggeration.

This means that there are two opposing forces influencing the birth rate:
- a better health infrastructure will most likely increase it, as will the sense of safety, people don’t breed more easily in war situations
- a higher wealth will lead to less children, since they don’t need so much kids by way of pension money.

It might all even out.
We just don’t know, until we measure it.

Again, Tinyfrog, thanks for all your hard work, it cannot be very uplifting to try to be precise in refuting these vile and toxic stories.
on May 4, 2009 at 1:05 am | Reply Saar

I checked them by myself before I stumbled on the website.
You did a great job. (Like I did)

But you forgot to notice that the highest birth rates
are still from Mainly africans.
then mainly Muslim ones
and finally from Latin ones.

So his premise is still correct as far as the TREND.
People with Money (Europeans and americans)
want CHEAP labor so they can maintain their lifestyle
and that labor will come from
AFRICA and Arab countries for the Europeans.
Latinos for the Americans.

Personally I don’t care as I love racing the kenyans.
I enjoy a Shawarma in a Pita.
I love seviche
But just a thought
on May 4, 2009 at 1:27 am | Reply el gato

Citing wikipedia as a source? Come on – that is very weak support for your criticism!! Also I saw the video clip – I don’t recall the 8.1 figure showing up anywhere. Also – I think you have ignored the impact of immigration – the coupling of immigration and high birth rates could make the scenario proposed in the video real.
- on May 4, 2009 at 8:56 pm | Reply tinyfrog
  
  > Also I saw the video clip – I don’t recall the 8.1 figure showing up anywhere.
  
  My screenshot comes from the video – it appears between 2:47 and 3:00 in the video.
on May 4, 2009 at 2:58 am | Reply Tom

el gato,

What sources do you normally draw upon and how well did you watch the video and read tiny’s commentary? Wikipedia is often a good source for information because it is transparent, and therefore editable by anyone for correctness. It may not be the BEST source, but the self-policing of wikipedia is what makes it work. It’s the way the science community works, too. It’s an effective way to disseminate truth. Furthermore, you can read any Wikipedia article for sources for its claims and determine if they are valid sources or not. If you read this Wiki that Tiny used, you will find that its numbers are from French census data. This census data, like Tiny’s critique, accounted for immigration rates. At 2:51 into the video is where you get the 8.1 birthrate figure.

Keep glossing over things and accept sound-bite headlines if you want, but if you want to critique Tiny’s critique, dig into things deeper. Play with the numbers like Tiny did. Couple immigration rates you find from valid sources with what you find to be appropriate birth rates to support the videos claims, if you are to accept that it could even be real. Build scenarios and formulate opinions that are worthy of a more meaningful argument.
on May 4, 2009 at 7:49 am | Reply Achim

From a German perspective: Here in Berlin we notice that immigrant populations cling to traditional values much stronger than we native Germans do, and as populations mix only very slowly, this holds for 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants as well. One aspect of this are values derived from a very orthodox and illiberal variety of Islam. As immigrants do not feel welcome they tend to oppose “Western” values.

This may very well become a problem. Some of these people put religious values over legal / constitutional values, e.g. gender equality, homosexuality or others. If you consider that at the same time immigrant populations with a Muslim backgraound – naturalized or not – are hit harder by unemployment, low level of schooling etc., there are problems arising.

The “8.1 birthrate” figure may stem from statements such as “women in these countries have up to 8 or more children”. So the figure is a) a max value, not an average, and b) it does not consider child mortality. The authors rely only on such statistics that are fabricated by themselves.
- on May 4, 2009 at 9:11 pm | Reply tinyfrog
  
  > The “8.1 birthrate” figure may stem from statements such as “women in these countries have up to 8 or more children”.
  
  The video clearly implies that this is an average. Besides, what would “up to 8.1 children per family” mean anyway? Families have up to 8 or upto 9 children. It doesn’t make any sense to say “up to 8.1 children”. Besides, I knew a (white) guy here in the US who came from a family of 11. Does that mean we can say Americans have up to 11 children. That’s not a very useful metric. Average number of children is a useful metric. (Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your point. Maybe you’re explaining how they confused “8 or more children” and misinterpreted that as “an average of 8.1 children”.)
  
  > it does not consider child mortality
  
  I’m not sure that child mortality makes much of a difference. The child mortality of Algeria is 32 per 1000, which works out to 3.2%. The child mortality rate in France is 4 per 1000, or 0.4%. So, by moving from Algeria to France, the child mortality rate drops by 2.8%. That would transform a 2.0 fertility rate into 2.05. That’s not a big difference.
  http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_inf_mor_rat-health-infant-mortality-rate
on May 4, 2009 at 4:14 pm | Reply Johan

Now that I have read this blog, I think that someone should sue the guy that uploaded that propaganda video on YouTube. It is full of lies and not based on facts.
on May 5, 2009 at 7:03 pm | Reply C L O S E R » Blog Archive » Islamizing Europe - Muslim Demographics

[...] Muslim Demographics « Tiny Frog [...]
on May 6, 2009 at 5:29 pm | Reply TheBlackViewFromAmsterdam

Danish women almost outfucking muslim fems!

http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2009/05/06/083729.htm

engelsk

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/05/denmark-immigrantsdanes-have-same.html
on May 7, 2009 at 12:26 am | Reply Michel

Excellent exposure of this propaganda film. I am actually quite sceptical about immigration, but some of these ‘facts’ were just so obviously false even I couldn’t take it seriously.

As others remarked you are a bit off on comparing birthrates with the immigrants to those still in their country of origin. I’m actually surprised they are so low over there.

I’ve done some research after seeing this video (I normally couldn’t care less, but I see links appearing to this movie all over the internet, so I figured it needs to be exposed).

Here are some of my findings about his claims about my own country:

“50% of all people in the Netherlands will be muslim within 15 years”
Absolute nonsense. To achieve this, it would require and increase of over 7 million muslims. There is no way this will happen in such a short time.

According to statistics, expectations are that in 2050 ~2.900.00 million people will be of non-western descent
(this includes lots of non-muslims) on a total population of 17,4 million. So even if we add 35 years to his prediction, it will most likely still not come true.

Immigration of Turks and Moroccans, what was our main source of Islamic immigrants is alot lower than it used to be. Fertility rates are still high compared to natives (and apparantly higher than in their country of origin) but have dropped dramatically since 1980. At that time it was 7,1 for Moroccans, wich was down to 3,3 in 2002. Turks used to have 4,3 wich was down to 2,4 in 2002. And this is just from the first generation, mostly uneducated women who were not born here. It will probably be even lower for those who are born here, get an education and who can get a decent job. Anyway, I can’t see how they would breed over 7 million extra muslims in 15 years at this rate.

Another interesting fact I didn’t even know until I did some research, is that since 2003 the number of Turks and Moroccans who emigrated back to their country of origin, has also increased dramatically. By the thousands! For Turks for example, it went from ~1100 in 2003 to ~4500 in 2007. In 2007 we had about 3500 Turkish immigrants, so there are actually more leaving then coming in.

The claim that 50& of all newborns are muslim is also false. In 2003, 19% of all newborns were of foreign descent, wich includes western foreigners and non-western (non-muslim) groups.

In the 3 biggest cities, it might be true but even there I have doubts. In Rotterdam with about 583.000 people, those of foreign descent number at 40-45% and I guess about 20% is muslim. This is hard to tell for sure though, because besides Turks and Moroccans (8% and 6%) most other groups (Rotterdam has people with over a 100 different nationalities) are just lumped into the big pile of ‘other non-western foreigners’ in te statistics.

Source is mainly the Central Bureau of Statistics ( http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/home/default.htm?Languageswitch=on ), the authority on statistics in the Netherlands. Even though nutjobs on the far-right will always claim everything all it produces is government propaganda and that it’s a leftist conspiracy to mislead them.
on May 7, 2009 at 6:17 am | Reply Riz

You are frightened by these statistics because of xenophobia.

There’s nothing wrong with Muslims in Europe and America, they are great people.

Christianity isn’t that much different than Islam.

Learning about Islam through a biased source isn’t learning, it’s just being brainwashed.

Take for example a Muslim learning about Christianity. Someone could make a video showing KKK members at a rally or the Spanish inquisition as representing the values of Christianity. How many prominent women are in Christianity?

Every new culture takes awhile to integrate into a new society. In America, the Irish, Italians, and Jews all had their difficulties when then first immigrated over. It’s not easy to integrate immediately. It’s precisely these types of hate filled Islamophobic people that make Muslims feel bitter about their new country instead of embracing it.
- on June 4, 2009 at 5:55 pm | Reply Keith
  
  “Christianity isn’t that much different than Islam”
  
  Statements of this nature are just as false as the “facts” presented in propaganda videos and generally come from an uniformed person – You obviously don’t know Christianity or you don’t know Islam or both!
  - on July 16, 2009 at 7:10 pm Anon
    
    Actually, Riz is quite correct. Obviously, there is a large difference in how Islam and Christianity view Jesus and Muhammad, but the rest is the same.
    
    They both teach of the stories of Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, and many others. The both teach worship of one God.
    
    Clearly, they are not the same, but no religion is closer to Islam than Christianity, and possibly vice versa.
on May 7, 2009 at 11:45 am | Reply Slugsie

An excellent analysis and refutation of some seriously flawed statistics.

One question remains unanswered however, is having a smaller population (either per nation or globally) necessarily a bad thing? I suspect that economists would say yes, but many others (myself included) would say no.
on May 8, 2009 at 3:04 pm | Reply muslim fertility rates - GotGames.com.au

[...] [...]
on May 9, 2009 at 5:18 am | Reply Brian

Where you say

“They list of source for this claim, but it’s too small to read.”

I put the video in High Quality and could read it:

Bryan J. Williamson
“Global Jihad: Lifting the Veil on Islam”

After searching for quite a while, I found no information on the author or the article other than that it is available for hard-copy sale from the “Virgin Mary’s Bayside Prophecies Store” on the “These Last Days Ministries” website.
The store lists it as a 20-page report and charges $5 for it. It also has a “Part 2″ 24-page report available for the same price.
on May 9, 2009 at 7:27 am | Reply muslim fertility rates - GotGames.com.au

[...] inside France. Source An article I suggest reading in regards to that video Here. As you previously mentioned, alot of that video is just scare mongering, I’d find it more [...]
on May 9, 2009 at 12:32 pm | Reply anonymot

All of the stats & demographics are interesting. We know they can be twisted & misused by all parties concerned, but birthrates are only interesting, because they are dooming the world in many, many ways that have neither interest nor respect for religious ideologies. The world’s real problem is being rudderless. There are no leaders- nor white nor black nor asiatic nor in nor out nor muslim nor christian nor atheistic. We have impaled ourselves on our own sword and needn’t worry about how many muslims there’ll be in 2050, because if there are fifty of each belief they will be lucky (or unlucky!

We were a defective species, not the first to extinct, but perhaps the last.
on May 9, 2009 at 7:26 pm | Reply Chris

I think what Herbert Meyer says in his intelligence report is a more accurate and comprehensive assessment of our world. No spooky music either.

http://www.donsfunds.com/files/Intelligence_Briefing_for_CEO%27s.pdf

A key paragraph in his speech states;

“Ultimately, it’s an issue of culture. The only people who can hurt us are ourselves, by losing our culture. If we give up our Judeo-Christian culture, we become just like the Europeans. The culture war is the whole ballgame. If we lose it, there isn’t another America to pull us out.”
on May 10, 2009 at 8:46 am | Reply Nicolas Krebs

Thank for this good and usefull article. See also “World Factbook”, 2008 edition, CIA, https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/download/download-2008/ (and possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community ).

“However, birth rates do vary over time, and have increased. For example, here’s an image of France’s population over the past two centuries.” (tinyfrog)

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Fertility showing that french fertility rate decreased down to 1.66 in 1993, and since 1994 increasing, up to 2.0 in 2008.

“Here are some of my findings about his claims about my own country:” (Michel)

See also the figure “Fertility Decline in the Netherlands Among Women Born in the Netherlands, Morocco, and Turkey, 1990 to 2005″ in Mary Mederios Kent, “Do Muslims have more children than other women in western Europe?”, Population Reference Bureau, prb.org, February 2008, http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx?p=1 .

“You are frightened by these statistics” (Riz)

I am not. On the contrary, I think it’s the funnisest video of the year (see also “The ‘hop-off-you-frogs’ prize for the silliest headline about France in the British press – generally a much-contested honour – can be awarded early this year.” in John Lichfield, “Our Man In Paris: France will never be a Muslim state”, The Independent, 2004-02-03, http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/our-man-in-paris-france-will-never-be-a-muslim-state-568594.html ).
on May 10, 2009 at 3:44 pm | Reply AD Blogging » Blog Archive » Demographic Shifts

[...] Now this video has clearly been put together by representatives of the religious right in the USA. It brings reference to religion as a key issue that may or may not be significant. It also does overstate the case and a debunking is here. [...]
on May 10, 2009 at 9:25 pm | Reply Dan

Tiny Frog,
Thank you for a very convincing and visually effective presentation of the facts.
I happen to be an evangelical Christian, but also a scholar of the Muslim World. As soon as “Muslim Demographics” came out, another evangelical scholar asked me to review it. I was just finishing that response when I came across your website.
What amazed me is that our sources were close to identical, and our conclusions very similar.
Very little of this presentation has any basis in fact. What basis there is has been buried by misinterpretation of those facts.
Evangelical Christians who examine your website should know your conclusions are not based upon bias against the beliefs of those who made this production. Your conclusions are accurate.
The effects of this presentation, even if it was not the intention of those who made it, are racist and anti-immigrant.
Thanks for your hard work. And thanks for me letting me have my say.
on May 10, 2009 at 11:06 pm | Reply K2

I stopped reading as soon as I saw you used Wikipedia as a source…
on May 11, 2009 at 5:40 pm | Reply Robin

I was admittedly concerned after viewing the video, but suspected it was fear mongering. I’m thankful for Tiny Frog’s debunking work. Now if he can debunk the claims of Aaron Russo in America: Freedom to Fascism I would be eternally grateful. I continually see proof for Aaron’s claims everyday in the mainstream media as well as online. If it is true, it wouldn’t matter who out-reproduces who. The powers that are moving the world into a single global government (Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, and Council of Foreign Affairs)wouldn’t much care about their minions’ cultural backgrounds nor their religious beliefs.
on May 12, 2009 at 5:28 am | Reply “Muslim demographics” propaganda video exposed

[...] and numerous other mistakes and inconsistencies are exposed and thoroughly refuted in an excellent post on the Tiny Frog blog. If anyone sends you a link to the “Muslim demographics” video, send them back a link [...]
on May 13, 2009 at 8:26 pm | Reply PC

A couple of things…

1. you did a lot of work on the subject! Good effort! I am surprised though that you would do this amount of work and use Wikipedia for a source… you kind of lost me on that one.

2. No doubt there are some differences in the numbers proposed on the Video, however the national birth rates in the majority of western Europe and North Anerica have declined a great deal over the last 100 years and if this trend does continue, which in all likely hood it will, There will be no way of reversing the trends.

From a historical stand point we need to remember that it was the Europeans who ‘conquered’ the Americas only some 200 years ago or so…. The fact is, some societies no longer exist as they once were and are but a shadow of their former selves. In all likelihood, these societies will never recover or even continue to exist over time.

It can happen to us. For us to think our societiy will not be affected or that we are invincible would not be wise.
on May 14, 2009 at 2:33 am | Reply Mission Researchers Respond to the Muslim Demographic Video

[...] demographics http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/ – tears into all of the statistics in a highly detailed [...]
on May 14, 2009 at 1:01 pm | Reply RSS agregator » Blog Archive » Refutation to the "Muslim Demographics" Video

[...] Refutation to the "Muslim Demographics" Video http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/0…-demographics/ [...]
on May 14, 2009 at 8:57 pm | Reply Tom

One thing to keep in perspective is that Europe has several cultures and languages. While there is a fear of homogeneity across the globe, be it American fast food, or in this case, Muslims, I just don’t see it happening. Europe has interacted with Muslims and each of its neighbors for centuries. Yet, individual cultures persist. Yes, culture evolves and what we call French today is unlikely to be what we call French in 100 years, but an infiltration of homogeneity, as much as marketers, religions, and other cultures try, and sci-fi novels predict, I just don’t see it happening.

I also don’t know what is up with the Wiki bashing. Like I said in a comment before, it may not be the BEST source for information, but in many cases it is an adequate source because it is open to correction and does provide sources for its data. It is certainly more credible than a dramatized YouTube opinion! Let’s apply common sense, too. If Muslims had a 8.1 birthrate, what would their populations be? They would be extraordinary!
on May 15, 2009 at 12:55 am | Reply Tony Whitmarsh

All this is very interesting (and gratifying if correct), but at no point I could discern from a quick scan of the article were statistics ever given of of growth of muslim populations in host countries compared with the host populations themselves. With better health facilities and government handouts for having children, it is not impossible to conceive (no pun intended) that an immigrant population disposed to a high birthrate might be benefitting from these advantages. Probably governments do not release this information in the interests of political correctness, but until those figures are available many people’s minds will not be put at rest. No one wants to feel they are being swamped, and unless it can be adequately demonstrated that they are not the fearmongers will have a field day.
on May 15, 2009 at 4:56 am | Reply Houghton

I agree that the video is over the top. Frankly, an easy target that avoids the real substance at the heart of the matter: demographic suicide.

Whether the video itself is biased and overly dramatic — and it is — it’s interesting that Tiny Frog evidently chose to ignore secular sources that make the same point — and they’re not even “right-wing Christians” (though I suppose from Tiny Frog’s standpoint, any source to the right of Tiny Frog is “right wing”):

A writer who bemoans the rise of fundamentalism everywhere – http://www.amazon.com/Empty-Cradle-Birthrates-Threaten-Prosperity/dp/0465050506

“Dying Russia” – http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120907994764042837.html

This one is written by a gay American expat – http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0767920058/ref=pd_sim_b_8

http://www.amazon.com/Menace-Europe-Continents-Crisis-Americas/dp/1400097703/ref=pd_sim_b_14

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Europe-Epitaph-Continent/dp/031254183X/ref=pd_sim_b_11

So I’m glad Tiny Frog made you all “feel better” with a fairly surface critique, but stop feeling better. In fact, stop feeling and start thinking.

Those who deny the reality in front of their noses are doomed to repeat history.

Whether it’s a “culture” we’re talking about or a civilization, they do rise and fall based on the choices people make and the worldviews we embrace or discard.

Europe is Jonestown in slow motion.
on May 15, 2009 at 5:08 am | Reply Houghton

For a blog that seems to represent itself as embracing hard-eyed realism, I see an awful lot of pie-in-the-sky naivete about the bad old world out there in the comments section and a lot of wishful thinking.

We are all not going to get along, no matter how many times you may wish it to be so.

There are cultural worldviews which do in fact seek to dominate, marginalize and obliterate (insert snarky reply about Western capitalism and white males here, I suppose).

One of those worldviews just now happens to have produced a surplus of angry young men willing to don suicide vests, pilot commercial jetliners into landmark office towers, saw off heads with rusty knives, serve up dead children as a meal to their parents … in fact, whatever atrocity they’re asked to commit in the name of a bloodthirsty desert deity.

Get that through your thick skulls.
on May 15, 2009 at 3:31 pm | Reply mark

They also kill the people who are not muslim when they can. Also they intimidate people to change. The tactic worked for the Catholics 1300 years. The radical sheites are doing it in there nation. It worked for Hitler for a little while.
on May 16, 2009 at 12:48 am | Reply Simon

Perhaps all the “indigenous” Europeans should go and live in those Muslim countries with the fertility rates below 2. Ours will shoot up then we’ll outnumber them soon lol
on May 16, 2009 at 2:56 pm | Reply Ted

“Europe has interacted with Muslims and each of its neighbors for centuries.”
Interacted?? How misleading of you. Ever thought of writing for the BBC? Muslims tried to conquer Europe and were twice repelled. Now they are inside the gates, same violent muslim culture, modern civilised Europeans wondering wtf went wrong??
on May 18, 2009 at 6:43 am | Reply Muslim Demographics on YouTube Abuse of Statistics

[...] in the Netherlands are Muslim and that in only 15 years half the population will be Muslim. As Tiny Frog points out, there are approximately 1 million Muslims in the Netherlands, a nation of 16.6 million [...]
on May 19, 2009 at 3:19 am | Reply Fatemeh

Awesome takedown! (Clapping)
on May 19, 2009 at 4:49 am | Reply Jeef

Loved the work. Give yourself a free set of steak knives!
on May 19, 2009 at 7:43 pm | Reply BOB

Good Job!
on May 20, 2009 at 1:36 am | Reply Sarah

Even if those statistics were some what true…why the fear? when you think of it, Islam will solve all the problems that we have in the west! practicing Muslims don’t drink or do drugs, for this to be eliminated in our society half our problems would be gone! they have good family structures…no teenage pregnancies which eventually results in kids without a mum and dad unit, that usually leads to single mums without rights, no oldies in rest homes living witjout their families until they die, and no economic recessions! interest is forbidden in Islam…accurate solutions to today’s problems of poverty, depression, and other injustices that are all around…that’ what I know about Muslims from reading Islam from unbiased resources, and from good Muslim friends I have, I really got all my questions answered! and I will very shortly add another number to this increasing Muslim world numbers…It is so sad to see people fearing what is good for their humanity in this world and in the hereafter! wake up people, it is about time you start questioning if what you have is working for you and the world you live in! search for the truth!
- on May 20, 2009 at 3:47 am | Reply Victor Gamma
  
  If Islam is so great, why is every Muslim country a disaster, more or less. The only ones that have half their act only do because they are swimming in oil money. A former work acquaintance of mine worked in Saudi Arabia and said that the Arabs were not good workers. Haven’t you ever heard of ‘honor killing’? I suggest you look it up on the web. You are only looking at the positives. The West is a mess because it has abandoned Christian principles and is in a moral free-fall. But I don’t think the answer is Islam, which will take away your right to free speech. Don’t believe me? Then try critically analyzing Islam in public in a muslim Country and see how long you live? It’ s only in a Christian-based (in our early days) nation that we have the freedoms we enjoy.
  - on July 16, 2009 at 7:18 pm Anon
    
    Careful about the “Christian-based” thing. Islam claims to share the same foundation as Christianity.
    
    Also, careful about making generalizations. “Arabs are not good workers”? You make two generalizations here: 1)All Muslims are Arab (in view of the context), and 2)All Arabs are bad workers. Both of which are false.
- on May 29, 2009 at 8:58 pm | Reply Jimbo63
  
  Sarah,
  
  Have you ever been outside of the USA?
  
  Apparently not!
  
  I work and travel all around the Middle East and part of what you say its true; what you are forgetting is that all you have to sacrifies for the exchange of the priviledges you speak of is “YOUR FREEDOM”
  You should walk around the Morocan market were beggers are abundants and thieves are the usual and worst than in New York; No they won’t rob you at gun point but none the less they do.
  Attempt to walk on a street in Saudi Arabia without your head cover and veil, be prepare to be castigated by the Islamic Police and beaten in public for being a woman.
  
  Child, you have a lot to learn; maybe one day you can ask your Muslin friends to give you a tour of their country, but don’t forget your Burka!
  
  Salaamaliukum!
on May 21, 2009 at 4:57 am | Reply Jet

Good work Tiny,

Fear based phobias never lead to accurate results. However, you don’t need to look far to see where changing Muslim demographics and Islamic fundamentalism have undermined stability. So far the people on this thread seem to be overlooking the Muslim demographic trends in Russia. “Chechnya has been at war for most of the last 10 years. Low-level violence is continuing, and the republic remains the main source of instability in the volatile Caucasus region.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293441.stm And most Chechens are Sunni Muslim.

“Experts say the country is undergoing a startling change and that if current trends continue, more than half of Russia’s population will be Muslim by midcentury. ‘Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union,’ said Paul Goble, an expert on Islam in Russia and a research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.’”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/19/MNGJGMFUVG1.DTL

“Fertility and birthrates are much higher among Muslim ethnic groups than among ethnic Slavs. In 2006, predominantly Muslim regions had the highest population growth rates: 1.79 percent in Chechnya, 1.16 percent in Ingushetia, and 0.65 percent in Dagestan. The national average was -0.37 percent.

Proponents of radical Islam have their own expansionist and often violent agendas. Radicalism spreads in many regions because of local grievances–including Stalinist persecution and ethnic cleansing, poverty, and corruption–and radicalizing foreign Islamic influences… Although the new practices appear stricter and more radical, they continue to gain in popularity.”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/RussiaandEurasia/bg2084.cfm#_ftn19

So my point is that while this particular video was blatantly wrong on several key facts, changing Muslim demographics and their tendencies towards radicalization are something worth paying attention to if for no other reason than curiosity. Look how quickly the Native Americans where wiped out.
on May 21, 2009 at 2:21 pm | Reply Hermano Felipe

Tiny Frog did a lot of work on this, but I’m not seeing where he is differentiating between the birth rates of the whole countries compared to those of the native populations. The basic point of the video is that Muslims Immigrants are propagating much faster than the nationals.

The figures that Tiny Frog quotes as “Acutal Figures” would include those of Muslim births within the countries. He also says that recent evidence shows that birth rates are rising in these countries. How is that to say that it is not brought about by the Muslim high rates of birth? I will agree that there are many generalizations and a number of exaggerations in this video, but when you look at the reality of it there is a massive increase in the numbers of Muslims in these countries that can’t be ignored. Democracies must reflect the will of the people, and when there are more Muslims than others in a country that country will become Muslim.

To me it is very scary to look at the condition of countries where Islam has ruled for a number of centuries. It is far too easy for them to justify any kind of hatred and bloodshead because their Quran is to generalized as to who is an Infidel. Just look at the battles they have with each other! If the world becomes Islamic, as dear Sarah who tells us to not fear the onset of Islam, what possibly will prevent the ongoing bloodshed and animosity that has continually characterized Islam? I’m not talking about the Jihad against Christianity and the West, but about wars and strive between Muslims. As I see it, it is a religion birthed in warfare that cannot survive without it. There always has to be an enemy and when there is not an obvious one the leaders will find a convienent one. At least that is what 500 + years of Islamic history serves to teach. Only as Islam has confronted the West and has tried to hide it’s ugly face have we seen a peaceful side of it, but that will surely be replaced by the inhumane cruelty that characterized Muhammed’s government once he had taken control of Mecca.
on May 21, 2009 at 2:28 pm | Reply Bushido

I wont say that the information in the video is incorrect no more then your information claiming its false is correct or incorrect.
For me, I just think its funny how easy it is for people to believe that the information they read is correct. Just because both the video and the article here throw numbers and statistics at us we are sure it must be true (cant dispute numbers and statistics).
I’m sure that when people first seen the video they all believed this info was correct. What changed…just because Tinyfrog gives us what sounds like undisputable numbers and facts.
I myself enjoy the reading on both parts but dont plan on researching what either have given for us to believe.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is, dont be so quick to believe what you read and not until you do the research yourself will you know for sure how true it is.
- on August 9, 2009 at 6:38 pm | Reply steeveetee
  
  So, while you recommend a Judeo-Christian skepticism for the rest of us, Bushido, you’re planning to stay ignorant? Smart.
on May 21, 2009 at 6:33 pm | Reply John

Any idea who is responsible for the clip? I’ve been trying to pin down the source but it’s elusive.
- on October 14, 2009 at 4:04 pm | Reply D. Chalmers
  
  I’ve been on the same search and think that it may be from Mark Steyn, author and self proclaimed Islamaphobe and sensationalist contributor to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. I called the video an incendiary piece of propaganda put out by a “Christian” to incite hate toward a religious group of people. And I now see it being posted on a Christian website as reason to evangelise.
on May 21, 2009 at 7:24 pm | Reply tinyfrog

Note: if your comment doesn’t show up right away, it means it set-off my spam filters. One way to set-off the spam filters is by posting too many links in a comment. I’ll approve any and all comments as long as they aren’t spam.
on May 23, 2009 at 1:07 pm | Reply nestorcaaf

Good work.

Also, the fact that someone has muslim parents does not meen that they will grow up to become muslim in faith or culture.
on May 27, 2009 at 7:45 am | Reply Itzcoatl

I knew they were lying or at the very least exaggerating when they claimed 2 million Muslims in Holland. I knew the correct number was 1 million.

When they claimed there was 50 million Muslims in Europe already, I knew the correct figure was about 20 million.

Hence, from the word go I knew that the people making the video were the same type that seek to spread malicious lies about Mexican-Americans–like me.

Its worth noting that while Mexico’s total fertility rate is 2.4 while the USA “Hispanic” birth rate is about 2.3. (The USA “Hispanic” birth rate is not broken down by nationalities, though Mexicans are 2/3 of USA “Hispanics”).

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/country/mxportal.html

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/summaries.html (Click on country of interest)

An average of 2.3 births per USA “Hispanic” female.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081908dnnatbirthrate.39dcfdf.html

Bottom line; The makers of the video in question are using lies to stir up fear about Muslim immigrants in Europe. They remind me people who spread lies like these;

“Illegals kill 25 Americans every single day”

U.S. Rep. Steve King (R-IA) in claimed in May 2006, in at least two speeches. and a press release that illegal immigrants murder 12 Americans each day and kill 13 each day as a result of drunken driving accidents, for a total of 25 deaths per

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/ia05_king/col_20060505_bite.html

Rep. Steve King (R-IA) misleadingly “extrapolated” figures from an April 2005 Government Accountability Office (GAO) study to formulate the questionable statistic regarding the number of deaths caused by illegal immigrants, the GAO report itself makes no such claim. The study shows that “noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally” comprise approximately 27 percent of the United States federal prison population. More than half of them there on immigration related charges only/

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

http://blogs.chron.com/bluebayou/2006/11/fanning_the_immigration_flames.html

http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200609270005

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=415

“30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens”

A 2005 report by the nonpartisan General Accounting Office says that immigrants — both documented and undocumented — constitute 27% of federal prisoners, many there on immigration related charges only. But fewer than 13% of incarcerated people in America are in federal prisons, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. When both federal and state prisoners are counted, about 6% are non-citizens; that is actually less than expected, because documented and undocumented immigrants make up roughly 8% of adults residing in the U.S.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pim07.pdf

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf

“240,000 illegal alien sex offenders”

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/insideice/articles/InsideICE_071905_Web1.htm

http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200702160002

http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals

http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html

USA immigrants (legal and otherwise) are increasing crime they claim. Yet, as US immigration has reached all time highs – crime has reached levels not seen since the 1960s – a decade of extremely low US immigration.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson/articles/2006_NYT_OpenDoors.pdf

The graph above cuts off at 2006, so here is the FBI data for US murders in 2007 and 2008;

FBI Data on US Murders 2007;

Total -2.7

Northeast -8.6

Midwest -3.8

South +2.9

West -6.7

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table2.htm

FBI Data on US Murders 2008;

Total -4.4

Northeast -1.2

Midwest -5.2

South -5.2

West -4.2

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2008prelim/table_2.html

“Illegals are a drain”

Comptroller for the State of Texas;

“The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services
they received.”

http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/undocumented.pdf

“Illegal Aliens are CRIMINALS”

“While an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States in and of itself is not a crime, unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country.”

http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-and-Opinions/opinions/ctapp/2007/20070817/96613.htm

Former US Attorney for the southern district of New York, Rudy Giuliani;

“Glenn, being an illegal immigrant, the 400,000 were not prosecuted for crimes by the federal government, nor could they be. I was U.S. attorney in the southern district of New York. So believe me, I know this. In fact, when you throw an immigrant out of the country, it’s not a criminal proceeding. It’s a civil proceeding.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDo-ZVK4dc0&eurl=http://adreamdeferred.org/blog/30676-being-illegal-is-not-a-crime

U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie Serving the District of New Jersey;

“Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime,” Christie told more than 60 residents and town officials. “The whole phrase of ‘illegal immigrant’ connotes that the person, by just being here, is committing a crime.”
Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it’s not a criminal act, Christie said.

“Don’t let people make you believe that that’s a crime that the U.S. Attorney’s Office should be doing something about,” he added of entering the country illegally. “It is not.”

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/immigrants_and_their_advocates.html

Internet MYTH debunked by (and sourced) to LA Times

1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal.

5. Nearly 35% of all inm ates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish. There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County.

http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/04/may_day_mythbus.html

http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/02/some_memes_neve.html

I think the USA is a different matter altogether given that Europeans (including the Spanish) came here ILLEGALLY themselves. Who invited THEM?

For ALL of you that hate us so passionately, I leave you with some facts to choke on;

Mexico ethnic groups; Ethnic groups: Indian-Spanish (mestizo) 60%, Indian 30%, Caucasian 9%, other 1%.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35749.htm

$25 billion Mexico receives in US remittances represents 0.016% of US National Income

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/07/30/us-slowdown-hits-mexico-as-remittances-drop/

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP.pdf

Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

Mexico = USA #2 Customer

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html#exports

“Hispanics”, 2/3 of Mexican ethnicity, are now 20% of ALL school age children in the USA.

http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=96

“Hispanics” are now 25% of ALL births in the USA (2/3 of Mexican ethnicity)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/30/AR2008043003397.html

Surge in U.S. “Hispanic” Population Driven by Births, Not Immigration.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120959501599257567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

With an average of 2.3 births per USA “Hispanic” female.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081908dnnatbirthrate.39dcfdf.html

Of U.S. Children Under 5, Nearly Half Are Minorities

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/09/AR2006050901841.html

It’s not our fault that more whites die each day than are born. How can it be given that this is a global phenomenon? Maybe you haters should work on raising the white birth rate instead of hating on us?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?partner=MOREOVERFEATURES&ei=5040

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080303/joyce

http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/23784
on May 27, 2009 at 12:11 pm | Reply Nevin

“This is a call to action”….! ends the video….

What kind of action is the video talking about? Perhaps a second holocaust? Perhaps wiping out the Muslims this time, just like the Jews 60 years ago?

I am disgusted with this racist junk…. It is exactly this type of nonsense that makes this world so racist and intolerant… Who ever did this video should be locked up in a mental asylum….
on May 29, 2009 at 4:43 am | Reply The new world - TDR Roundtable

[...] [...]
on May 31, 2009 at 11:50 am | Reply Sarah

Thank you Nevin for your comment, it is reliefing to see there is still good people around…

Victor Gamma: I agree with you, all Muslim countries are doing bad …they are being ruled by ‘Muslim’ governments that have been placed and supported by our governments …those rulers follow their own desirable ways to stay in power…but above all, I believe they are doing bad because the majority of them are not following their correct teachings and like to do things the cultural way…and besides, would you like me to judge Christianity based on what the ‘Christian’ countries doing to this world?? we won’t even go there…

dear Jimbo63; you won’t like hearing this but last year I went to Saudia Arabia believe it or not (which is worse than Morocco in the aspects you are talking about)…anyway, the problem of many people who share similar views to you is that they do not distinguish between the culture, what media tells us, and our racist implemented ideolgies and what Islam is really about… In my search for truth I put aside all what the so called “Muslim” conutries do – because Muslims that understand their religion believe there isn’t even one Islamic country that rules with the teachings of Islam. I read the Quran and other essential Islamic books and you will NEVER find that it is Ok to have no speech rights, beat women, honor killigs, or kill innocent people, or do the other nasty things that are always portrayed in our media…

Post sept. 11, The National geographic estimated that around 70,000 Americans converted to Islam in the first year after the attacks only…it got people interested in this whole ‘Islam’ thing and those people got to ‘read’, instead of being fed information…Islam is against such act of terrorism.

Michael Hart in his book the 100, put Muhammad as the number one person of most influential people in the history of mankind…and reading his biography from Muslim authentic sources, I understand why.
- on June 2, 2009 at 9:15 pm | Reply Jimbo63
  
  Sarah, I am trouble for your heart is looking in as are your eyes and mind, I hope your ears are open because what you are saying is; because of your religion you are willing to subject yourself to this type of treatment, although, as you said it is wrong! these leaders are running these countries as a farce? Isn’t it time that real Muslin to stand for the REAL teachings of Mohamed or is it just another excuse to say “as long as I am not doing it it’s ok with me” Remember Historic Nazy Germany; people ignore the truth until it was too late; look around; the same thing may be said for Islam.
on June 2, 2009 at 8:11 am | Reply Demografie musulmană şi individualism vestic « Clujul Evanghelic

[...] demografia islamică în Europa. (Ateii s-au interesat ceva mai adânc şi cum le stă în obicei au demitizat multe din pretenţiile [...]
on June 2, 2009 at 4:00 pm | Reply jeff

I rencently saw this video on a presentation about our changing culture. It was not anti muslim but warned about the changes to our culture from the rising muslim populations. When mentioning low birth rates it did not implicate that a low birth rate could be be reveresed but that the culture changes casued by a general low birth rate in the population accompanied by a growth rate for themuslim population
on June 2, 2009 at 8:13 pm | Reply Daniel Buda

Read “America Alone” by Mark Schwartz. He is definitely not a “Christian-Right” author. Same conclusions….better referrences.
on June 4, 2009 at 9:56 am | Reply Rui Neves

Statistics can be manipulated and surely they are!

Right-wing christians or left-wing of any kind, both, do it.

The Economist Pocket World in Figures gives an accurate idea of the general situation. Between 1991 and 2008 there was significant changes in terms of fertility.

The most interesting case that I know is France. The May Revolution of 1968 was studied by Economie et Humanisme few years latter as the result of Family aid to augment the fertility.

The real problem exists inside our culture or more exactly in the changes introduced by our materialistic deviation promoted by the consumption and reinforced by Marketing.

My own country after a short boom in 1974-6 entered in a decline and went from a youg nation to one of oldest european nations in 35 years.

History is to strong and the present requires reflexion. Europe needs immigrants but they surely prefer to find work in their own poor countries but rich countries never consented this since the pre-industrial revolution.

Fears or good wills are not good advisers as they can convey to not controlable situations that generate useless violence.
on June 7, 2009 at 5:47 pm | Reply Muslim Demographics » Islam Blog - A blog dealing with issues related to Islam and Muslims

[...] shared an article that provides and alternate perspective to the original video. Like I mentioned, the intentions behind creating this video seem suspect. [...]
on June 9, 2009 at 9:31 am | Reply Daniel

Hey,

I can tell you 1 thing. Here in Czech Republic we have lot of gipsie ghetos in our cities. They live their lives they do not want to integrate into our society. They do not work at all. Their fertility rate is very very high (something around 5 and more children per family). As they do not work they use up our social security benefits for children but do not bring anything back !!
I do not say that all gispies are the same but the most are.

If those muslims were smart enough they would make the same gispsie’s strategy to work for them.

As for the facts … yes video uses a bit of non precise numbers but I do not agree with anybody saying that video is xenophobic piece of stuff.
It does not tell anyone to get a weapon and shoot your muslim friends !

Second … your article is misleading too. You can not make any final verdict based on country origin fertility rates ! It does not make any sense.

And now tell me who is wrong ?

Sorry for my english … I know it’s not perfect.
on June 9, 2009 at 9:24 pm | Reply R

“A call to action?”

I am also perplexed by this at the end of the video…but not disgusted by it, more so amused.

To jump to the conclusion that the video is calling for a second holocaust is just as extremist an idea as the videos view point of Muslims taking over our global population.

It could be anything, because it is never pointed out. I, for one, love to theorize that the video is asking for Christians to stop using birth control and to start having lots and lots of baby making sex. But there are lots of ways that the ending can be interpreted, because they never say what they mean it can imply everything.

Other possible theories on the call to action;

Convert every Muslim you meet to any other religion or belief.

Marry a Muslim so that the race and religion may become thinned by the other races and religion mixed into the prospective children of that marriage.

Run for Government with a platform that only allows immigration rights to non Muslim persons.

….man oh man I could go on and on all day, but right now I am laughing so hard that I have to pee.

Any other ideas about what the possible “call to action” could entail? It could literally be anything! Be as crazy and imaginative as you want! It’s not the videos job to tell you, it’s your job to tell the world how your brain automatically problem solves.

Did you think holocaust as the first option? You may be in need for a little therapy my friend.
on June 15, 2009 at 8:26 pm | Reply Michael

I am what you called a Christian Right-wing American. I watched the video and then found your critique. At least you were fair in identifying the points the video got correct or close to correct. While, I agree, the numbers are exaggerated, which isn’t right, it still is true that Muslims are reproducing at a higher rate than the general public and certainly in most places more than Christians. In those countires where you correct the birth rates are your numbers the entire country (including Muslims)? and maybe the video’s numbers are for non-Muslims in those countries therefore lower than yours, although they don’t say that. One thing to remember whether this video was intended to be fear mongering or not, the teaching of Islam is to convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world to honor Allah. That includes non-Chritsians and atheists as well as Jews and Christians. NO ONE is beyond their reach.
- on July 16, 2009 at 7:27 pm | Reply Anon
  
  “the teaching of Islam is to convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world to honor Allah. That includes non-Chritsians and atheists as well as Jews and Christians. NO ONE is beyond their reach.”
  
  Show me where the Quran says to “convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world”.
  - on July 17, 2009 at 1:43 pm jonolan
    
    Anon,
    
    Off the top of my head I’d say the Qur’an admonishes Muslims convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world in:
    
    Surah 9 (Ultimatum) :
    
    [9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.
    
    [9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers.
    
    [9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.
    
    [9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.
    
    [9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
    
    [9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.
    
    [9:7] How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous.
    
    [9:8] How can they (demand a pledge) when they never observed any rights of kinship between you and them, nor any covenant, if they ever had a chance to prevail. They pacified you with lip service, while their hearts were in opposition, and most of them are wicked.
    
    [9:9] They traded away GOD’s revelations for a cheap price. Consequently, they repulsed the people from His path. Miserable indeed is what they did!
    
    [9:10] They never observe any rights of kinship towards any believer, nor do they uphold their covenants; these are the real transgressors.
    
    [9:11] If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know.
    
    [9:12] If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism – you are no longer bound by your covenant with them – that they may refrain.
    
    [9:13] Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place? Are you afraid of them? GOD is the One you are supposed to fear, if you are believers.
    
    And in Surah – 48 (The Victory):
    
    [48:28] He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. GOD suffices as a witness.
    
    [48:29] Muhammad – the messenger of GOD – and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD’s blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.
    
    As you can see, the Qur’an does state what you seem to doubt.
  - on August 4, 2009 at 9:22 pm Anon
    
    Then explain to me these verses:
    
    Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error (02 : 256).
    
    To you be your way and to be mine (109 : 06).
    
    Say, “The Truth is from your Lord.” Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject (it) (18 : 29).
    
    Say to those who do not believe: “Do whatever ye can: we shall do our part” (11 : 121).
    
    He that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set a custodian over them (39 : 41).
    
    If then they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey the message (42 : 48).
    
    Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching ; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious (16 : 125).
    
    Is there a contradiction, or is there some important historical context that needs to be taken into consideration?
    
    PS. Sorry for the late reply. I hadn’t realized someone had responded.
on June 16, 2009 at 1:56 pm | Reply seven

You say
“The EU population is 491 million”
But Europe’s population is well above 700 million.. the countries with high muslimrate’s aren’t a member of the EU jet..
Europe isn’t the same as the European Union.. FI Zwitserland, Norway aren’t members.. And many east europe coutries also..
- on August 9, 2009 at 7:48 pm | Reply steeveetee
  
  Yes. And the Muslim population of Switzerland, according to the CIA Factbook would be 235,000 of that 700 million. As for Norway, it would be even less: 83,000 – which would represent 0.012% of that ‘expanded’ European total.
  
  In US terms (population 304 million), Norway’s Muslims (according to the CIA Factbook) would fit into three and a half communities the size of Wasilla, Alaska (or one tenth-part of Anchorage). Or quite a few Crawford TX. Hardly swamping.
  
  But methinks, our American friends are looking in the wrong direction for the ‘threat’ to their civilisation. While 10 million of you are downloading and being bamboozled by some tendentious video on YouTube, the Chinese are buying up your entire country in a fire-sale.
  
  Hey, maybe it was them who made the video after all and not the right-wing wing-nut Christians; to distract you. Smart move if it was.
- on September 15, 2009 at 12:08 pm | Reply keyman
  
  Anon,
  
  the context is : the peaceful verses “came” when muhammad hadn’t have an army, in little numbers, and basicly relies on the mercy of other parties and the influence of his uncle
  
  while the war verses came after he continually robbed wealthy merchants, attack and terrorized rival tribes, established an army, send letters to neghbouring kingdoms
  “politely” asking them to embrace islam, while preparing tens of thousands of barbaric idiots on the borders ready to charge if they refuse
  
  didn’t you know that?
on June 16, 2009 at 2:28 pm | Reply Caspar

One of the things I miss in these discussions is that no one identifies the underlying premise that all children of muslims will be muslims too. Muslims are generally treated in these discussions like a different species who are not able to assimilate or change their belief system.

Let me give an example of what I mean. In the early 20th century Catholics had many more children than the other groups in Dutch society. In those year, protestant, socialist and liberal Dutch were terribly frightened of the Catholic demographic bomb and feared that in a few decades there would be no liberal Netherlands anymore, but that we would become an Italy at the Amstel.

A few decades later, the children of these 10+ families not only started having as many or few children as other groups in society, but also stopped considering themselves primarily as Roman Catholics. Many became non religious, and many only Catholic in name and went to church only at Christmas.

My point being simply that belonging to an institutionalized superstition is not hereditary and that we cannot make that many assumptions about the religion of future children of muslims.
on June 19, 2009 at 8:14 am | Reply Eric

Is it wrong to want to preserve a culture? Europeans are not producing babies? The politicians say we need immigrants to hold our economic status. So what about the economic status? Our way of life, our race is in jeopardy. We have overcome shortfalls before. Why should we become a minority in our own homeland? Wake up!!
on June 19, 2009 at 1:49 pm | Reply jonolan

Eric, no it is NOT wrong to want to preserve a culture. Sadly though, if that culture is a culture of primarily White people, a lot of people will decry such efforts at preservation.
on June 20, 2009 at 3:53 pm | Reply nonglang anselm

wake up you children of God fearing less it is too late. accelelate family rate to combat the out growth of the alarming growth of the opposite, that’s all
on June 25, 2009 at 1:47 am | Reply ThePants

Thank you for posting this, so many people watch that video and start their little rants and quote that video. It’s ridiculous and they believe it to be true 100%, I’m glad there’s sites & people out there to disprove that stupid video.
- on July 6, 2009 at 6:45 pm | Reply hiba
  
  WHY ARE U SO SCARED???????
on June 28, 2009 at 12:51 am | Reply Muslim Demographics – A Christian Response « PoP cULtuRe MiX

[...] in the Netherlands would need to have 26 children to makeup 50% of the births in the country” (Muslim Demographics). And according to The Netherlands Interdisciplinary Demographic Institute (NIDI), “Based on [...]
on June 28, 2009 at 1:41 pm | Reply azoptimist

Great thoughts! Truth=facts+individual’s perceptions. A then-first-grade student wrote this rap 15 years ago:

When you hear a story
You may be hearing lies
Try to keep an open mind
And listen to both sides
Both sides … uh huh. Both sides … uh huh.
Please listen to both sides.

Love this rap. Love your post!
Thanks!
on June 28, 2009 at 2:44 pm | Reply Muslim Demographics – A Christian Response « The Heresy Hunter Hunters

[...] in the Netherlands would need to have 26 children to makeup 50% of the births in the country” (Muslim Demographics). And according to The Netherlands Interdisciplinary Demographic Institute (NIDI), “Based on [...]
on June 29, 2009 at 3:12 pm | Reply Ce mai descoperim pe net? - Page 10

[...] gasit o replica Muslim Demographics Tiny Frog __________________ la 25nl nu se reprezinta nimic, la 25nl se "are" – [...]
on July 2, 2009 at 7:02 pm | Reply steve w

a call to action – it means spread the gospel of christ. bit different to the islamic teaching of destroy all infidels.
on July 6, 2009 at 6:44 pm | Reply hiba

OMG! wtf?
u guyz r just scared that we muslims WILL overpopulate u
thatz y ur twisting the words and making them into whatever YOU think sounds good

SCARDEY CATS….

no more 2 say…
PEACE OUT – HIBA
- on July 6, 2009 at 7:58 pm | Reply steve w
  
  well, personally i would hate to live in a muslim state. look around the world at the way muslims live in most of these countries. i think most brits would say it’s a bit of a backward step if we ended up like this lol! does that make me a scaredy cat? nah, just someone with common sense.
on July 7, 2009 at 6:44 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon

After reading over Tiny Frog’s analysis of this subject three times, I come to the conclusion that most of the people that have replied also have their blinders on…….pay attention to the context of what he/she says. The increase in each countries fertility rate is so minimal that it might as well be excluded in his presentation.

He makes claims based on “I think” and “I have a hard time believing”, but no data to back up what he thinks or can’t believe. Then at various points he says the video makes claims without proof of data. Hmmm.

Is there really that much of a difference between the statements “is well on the way” and “it will be a Muslim state by 2050″ that you need to use it as an example to discredit this video? That’s stretching it.

Tiny Frog is trying to compare the birth rates of immigrants in their countries of origin to their birthrates in their adopted countries with no statistics from the latter for comparison.

Just a few things of the things I picked up on. But if you want to be sheeple and follow this person blindly, hey that is your right!
on July 8, 2009 at 4:55 pm | Reply OH NOES! TEH MUSLIMS! OMG! | Typocracy.net

[...] links in regards to this: http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/ (more debunking/charts/stats/sources) [...]
- on July 24, 2009 at 12:35 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon
  
  Is there any particular reason that you posted a link that is a link to the link we are already at? Do you think that if it is read again it will change the fact that tiny frog is not also distorting facts?
  
  The “Muslim Demographics” video may be somewhat exaggerated, but tiny frog’s argument does not hold water when you REALLY read and grasp what he is saying.
  
  Oh, so many sheeple, so little time……….
on July 24, 2009 at 10:31 am | Reply M.Jackson

The only way to solve this problem is to convince the Chinese that moslems taste a bit like chicken .
- on July 24, 2009 at 12:53 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon
  
  Interesting remedy, but a bit barbaric. How about we just put some form of birth control in their water source? It wouldn’t hurt to add some valium to chill them out too.
- on August 9, 2009 at 8:04 pm | Reply steeveetee
  
  The only way to solve the problem is to convince the Chinese that Jews taste a bit like chicken…?
on July 27, 2009 at 10:57 am | Reply M.Jackson

Airport security could be made easier and a lot more fun if everyone were offered a glass of whiskey and a bacon roll before boarding . Anyone refusing to partake would have to walk.
vive la difference !
on July 27, 2009 at 2:47 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon

LOL!!
on July 30, 2009 at 7:53 am | Reply Sarah

Feeding the Muslims to the Chinese…cannibalism…tainting their water supply….violating their religious sensitivities…..

I’d be more worried about people like Christine and M.Jackson breeding and multiplying.
- on July 31, 2009 at 7:10 pm | Reply steve w
  
  i wouldn’t. any religion that openly says to “destroy all infidels” needs careful monitoring lol!
  - on August 9, 2009 at 8:07 pm steeveetee
    
    Whoops. Sorry. Forgot to say: LOL!!
on July 30, 2009 at 8:46 am | Reply M.Jackson

Any chance of having a go at breeding christine ?
- on July 31, 2009 at 7:10 pm | Reply steve w
  
  now there’s an offer christine could probably refuse.
on July 30, 2009 at 12:48 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon

First of all, Sarah, what ethnicity are you? Obviously not one with a sense of humor, dark or otherwise. Hey, I’m Danish – go for it, make fun of Danes, won’t bother me a bit……maybe you can start with the fact that the majority of Danes are the most passive peoples around.

Second, Sarah, read jonolan’s post on July 17, 2009 at 17:43 PM, and if that DOES NOT scare you, then you must be even more passive than the Dane’s, or are you a Dane??

Third, violating their religious sensitivities??? Religious sensitivities, REALLY??? That must be sarcasm, right? They preach killing, Sarah, do your research.

Fourth, dear, dear Sarah, not tainting their water supply as in with a poison. Just to prevent this violent segment of society from breeding and to settle them down somewhat.

M.Jackson: it might produce some interesting children. Run Sarah, Run!
on August 4, 2009 at 12:05 pm | Reply Dinosaur Hospital » Blog Archive » Muslim Demographics – Response

[...] response to this video is meant to function in tandem with Tiny Frog’s examination of the statistics and Snope’s review of the techniques used in the video to elicit a specific response from the [...]
- on August 4, 2009 at 9:27 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon
  
  Snopes is NOT a reliable source, they follow the same rules as Tiny Frog……..slight of hand, they word things so as to make you misunderstand the true meaning/content. I have debunked several of snopes true/false claims on articles.
  
  Do your own research. Don’t leave it up to these sites that just throw up smoke screens to distort facts, etc.
on August 4, 2009 at 7:09 pm | Reply Abdul Majeed

Thank you for the time you took to produce this piece. It is nice to hear the truth once-in-a-while. Best regards, Abdul Majeed.
- on August 4, 2009 at 7:17 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon
  
  Obviously someone has not read any of the comments made regarding this piece. This article is not total truth, ze Tiny Frog has used slight of hand in many of his assumptions.
- on August 4, 2009 at 9:06 pm | Reply : )
  
  I agree. Truth is good.
  - on August 4, 2009 at 9:32 pm Christine Sheldon
    
    Who’s truth?
on August 10, 2009 at 3:12 pm | Reply fertility rate and muslim demographics

IT SEEMS YOU HAVE DONE GOOD HARD WORK ON
fertility rate and Muslim demographics .
- on August 10, 2009 at 4:54 pm | Reply Christine Sheldon
  
  You must be referring to the people/person that produced the video? Or would you be referring to tiny frog?
  
  They both have flawed facts………so, again, whose truth do we believe? Or do we believe part of each? Wouldn’t that make the most sense?
on August 26, 2009 at 3:38 am | Reply Sincerely Amanda » Blog Archive » Fact Checking Muslim Demographics

[...] atheist blogger Tiny Frog stated that it didn’t seem to make sense that most of the Muslim immigrants in France could be so [...]
on August 31, 2009 at 6:46 am | Reply John Duckham

Thank you Tiny Frog. First time I have found you website and I am grateful. I live in Indonesia. I have been blogging on the Telegraph and other places recently following the media attention given to these demographics. The hype and fear filled rubbish that has been pouring out is pitiful. Again thanks and I am adding you to my blog roll on the site.

(Telegraph blogging in the name of John Pitcher typical sample on George Pitcher’s blog:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/georgepitcher/100006696/100006696/)
on August 31, 2009 at 11:40 am | Reply Daniel

Hey,

I have spent a real long time investigating lot of different sources for better imigration numbers.
Youtube video is not right but you are not correct too.

In serious biggest Czech newspaper there was a long article about growing muslim imigration. All numbers were proved numbers (no wikipedia and others).

It’s not very easy to get accurate numbers as nobody counts muslims as it would feel a bit “xenophobic”.

But take these facts:

Actually 6 most favourite names in Brusel are:
Mohamed, Adam, Rádžan, Ajúb, Mehdí, Amín a Hamza !!

One of the most favourite name in whole Britain is Mohamed !

I would never name my son Mohamed or do you ? Only muslim people will use these names for their children.

According to an american population institute in 2050 islam will count 20% of whole european population.

But do not feel too optimistic – muslim population numbers for big cities:

Rotterdame – 25 %
Marseille – 25 %
Malmo – 20 %
Brusel – 15 %
Birmigham, London, Paris – 10 %

Do you know what ? .. big cities always rule the other smaller cities.
Do you still think that muslim imigration is not a problem ?

The question is not if but when and how muslim will rule Europe !

I would not care it but can we expect them to live according to our european habits ? – I’m afraid not.
- on August 31, 2009 at 6:26 pm | Reply tinyfrog
  
  Actually 6 most favourite names in Brusel are:
  Mohamed, Adam, Rádžan, Ajúb, Mehdí, Amín a Hamza !!
  
  One of the most favourite name in whole Britain is Mohamed !
  
  One of the problems with the “most common name” data is that there are multiple factors involved. One of the factors is ‘how common is the most common european name’ versus ‘how common is the most common muslim name’. I’ve seen data that the europeans are giving their children more uncommon names. In other words, (to makeup an example) in the 1950s, the most popular British name was “Harry” and 10% of all British boys were names Harry. In the 21st century, the most common British name is “Jack” but only 2% of all boys are named Jack.
  
  You can take a look here (http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager) at the popularity of various American names through the last 120 years. There were times when some names (David, James, Michael, William) were very popular. According to the data on the website, “John” was the most popular American baby-boy name in the 1880s, and roughly 4% of all males were named “John”. In 2008, “Jacob” is the most popular American baby-boy name, but only 0.55% of all American baby-boys are named Jacob. Americans and Europeans are giving their children more unique names, naming them less uniformly than in the past. (If you want to verify my numbers, just type a name at the “>” prompt at the top of the graph and it will show you the number of children given that name per million.) I’ve seen similar data that says europeans are following a similar trend in naming (though, I can’t find the original source right now).
  
  Muslims, on the other hand, still name their children much more uniformly. This means, for example, that if european non-muslims make up 95% of the population, and the most popular boys name (“Jack”) is given to only 1% of boys, and Muslims make up 5% of the population, but give 20% of their boys the name “Mohammed”, guess what the most popular name in the country will be? It will be Mohammed because 5% * 20% = 1% of all boys will be Mohammed, but 95% * 1% = 0.95% of all boys will be named “Jack”.
  
  One of the most favourite name in whole Britain is Mohamed !
  
  I’ve seen some conflicting data on this. According to this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece) Mohammed is actually the second most common name. Here’s the breakdown from that article:
  
  The most popular names for baby boys in 2006
  
  1 Jack 6,928, 2 Muhammad (all spellings) 5,991, 3 Thomas 5,921, 4 Joshua 5,808, 5 Oliver 5,208, 6 Harry 5,006, 7 James 4,783, 8 William 4,327, 9 Samuel 4,320, 10 Daniel 4,303, 11 Charlie 4,178, 12 Benjamin 3,778, 13 Joseph 3,755, 14 Callum 3,517, 15 George 3,386, 16 Jake 3,353, 17 Alfie 3,194, 18 Luke 3,108, 19 Matthew 3,043, 20 Ethan 3,020
  
  As you can see, Muslims, by more uniformly naming their boys “Mohammed” catapulted one name into the top 20 list. The other names in the list are not muslim names, and the total count for those other 19 non-muslim names are 80,936. Another telling fact is that Jack was used “6,928 times”, and there are 12 other British names that are used 50% as often (at least 3,464 times) compared to the most popular name. But, how many muslim names are used 50% as often as Mohammed? None. Ethan was used 3,020 times. If another muslim name was used 50% as often as Mohammed, it would be used 2,995 times or more – which would place it almost in the 20th spot, which would probably put it into the top 20 list, knocking out “Ethan”.
  
  Also, the same article that says “Mohammed” is the second-most popular name says that “The leading name for girls born to Muslim parents in 2006 was Aisha, in 110th place.” Obviously, muslims name their girls much less uniformly than boys – it landed in 110th place.
on September 1, 2009 at 12:01 am | Reply Christine Sheldon

According to tinyfrog it is mainly American right-wing Christians that are promoting the subject of “Muslim takeover”……well that may be true, but the dear passive Danes are none too happy with the Muslim invasion (surprise, surprise):

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/09/danesa_growing.php

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/31/denmark.immigration/

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3457

http://alex-l.blogspot.com/2008/08/danish-immigration-law-under-fire.html
- on September 1, 2009 at 2:01 am | Reply tinyfrog
  
  Oh, I don’t disagree that agnostics and atheists are also unhappy with the idea of increased Muslim influence. Modern Islam has a bad relationship with free speech, human rights, freedom of religion, etc (example: http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/freedom-of-speech-vs-the-un-human-rights-council/) and there are nationalist forces at work as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if Le Pen wasn’t particularly Christian, either. But, it has been a hyped by the US right-wing, for sure. I really don’t hear much about Muslims taking over except in the right-wing media (which also happens to be largely Christian). Townhall.com, FreeRepublic.com, World Net Daily, etc – those are the places where you’ll hear the most about the ‘muslim takeover’ of europe. I’ve seen right-wingers already say that Europe is as good as fallen to Muslims.
  
  Examples of popular right-wing Christians’ and some of their comments on Islam – either raising fears of an Islamicized Europe or Islam in general:
  Cal Thomas: Invasion by Immigration
  Pat Robertson: Islam is not a religion, it’s a political movement
  Hal Lindsey: The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad
  
  One right-wing website writes approvingly:
  
  Pat Robertson said that those who think that the terrorists distort Islam are wrong. ‘They’re carrying out Islam,’ he told his audience. Speaking about the Danish cartoon controversy, he said that ‘it just shows the kind of people we’re dealing with. These people are crazed fanatics.’
  
  Franklin Graham, the son and successor of Billy Graham called Islam an ‘evil and wicked religion.’ Unlike Jerry Falwell, Graham refused to back down in the face of the angry protestations that ensued.
  
  John Hagee, one of America’s best known evangelical preachers, said: ‘America is at war with radical Islam. Jihad has come to America. If we lose the war to Islamic fascism, it will change the world as we know it.’
  
  In keeping with this, evangelical pastors regularly invite as guest speakers in their churches individuals with some expertise on the subject. Soldiers and personnel who have taken part in the War on Terror are also often asked to speak. Needless to say, the congregations are overwhelmingly appreciative of their work and sacrifice.
  
  Almost every evangelical outfit now offers some material on the dangers of Islam. Books, booklets, fact-sheets and audio recordings on the subject abound on their websites. The documentary Obsession is among the most popular and available at discounted prices from many evangelical outlets. Subtitled Radical Islam’s War against the West, its promotional blurb gives a clear idea why the film so appeals to this demographic
  ….
  Focus on the Family, an influential organization ran by one of America’s leading Christian conservatives, James Dobson, devoted four of its daily radio broadcasts to Islam in September of last year. The titles tell it all: Understanding the Threat of Radical Islam Part 1 & Part 2 and Radical Islam’s Impact on America Part 1 & Part 2.
  …
  Alarmed by Islamic expansionism, evangelical writers and scholars have produced a number of books seeking to alert to the danger. Here are just a few examples. Jim Murk, a seminary professor, wrote Islam Rising. Former missionary Robert Livingston published Christianity and Islam: Final Clash. Michael D. Evans, a fundamentalist minister, recently put out Showdown with Nuclear Iran: Radical Islam’s Messianic Mission to Destroy Israel and Cripple the United States. Joel E. Rosenberg, an evangelical of Jewish descent, wrote Epicenter: Why Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future.
  
  Also, there is a difference between the Danes (who are largely secular / atheist) restricting immigration and the excessive fear-mongering of the US right-wing who use ideas like the ‘takeover of Europe by Muslims’ as a means to stir-up fear and anger. I think the US right-wing has a very clear purpose in stirring up feelings of being embattled, just like the NRA uses “they’ll take your guns away” as a means to drive-up donations.
on September 1, 2009 at 10:30 pm | Reply duckham

Hallo Tiny Frog,

I would very much like to link to your site and wonder if you would link to mine. We seem to have a similar assessment of Islam and its dangers or otherwise in Europe.

I live in Mulsim majority Indonesia and am the head of a family all of whom are Muslims. I have been connected to Indonesia through marriage and family for nearly thirty years. I am not a Muslim and neither am I a Muslim apologist. My interests are in researching the misunderstandings of Islam that exist and how the religion has syncretised here and in other parts of the world with pre-existing religions and traditions.

The largest Muslim populations in the world are all in democracies; which kind of argues against one of the basic fears of Islam in the west. Islam can work with democracy.

Pls. take a look at my new site:

http://democraticduckham.wordpress.com

I have already linked to your excellent analysis above and would like to copy your comment (here) on most popular names and put that up in full as a main post; but feel I need your permission as you have put an enormous amount of work into this stuff.

Pls. leave a comment on one of the posts by way of an answer or e-mail direct: duckhamjohn@aol.com. Many thanks.

Very best regards,
John Duckham.
on September 4, 2009 at 3:17 pm | Reply Norman Luke

Two points:

ONE:

My foster Sudanese son studied medicine and obtained his medical degree in university in Egypt. He told me that there were regular seminars held by visiting Muslim clerics who made substantially the same claims made in the video. The clerics also claimed that they would take over Australia (I am an Australian) by 2050 through out-breeding us (each male would take 4 wives — serially, as polygamy is illegal — and produce four children by each wife). A Moslem cleric in Sydney made the exact same claim and one of our members of parliament was castigated for quoting the cleric (not politically correct). It is quite common in Australia to see a Muslim male well into his fifties with his (current) nineteen-year old wife.

Have you deliberately left out the quote by Muammar al-Gaddafi?

TWO:

The logic is flawed in the argument that it is possible to reverse the birth rate. There is a non sequitur when you point out that France’s birth-rate increased, rather than declined, without identifying the SOURCE of that growth. You want people to jump to the conclusion that all cultural groups in France have the same fertility rate and deliberately ignores the fact that the figures for that period included the AGGREGATE birth rate of ALL cultural/religious groups in France INCLUDING the Muslims. The video quite plainly separates the cultural groups. It would seem that most of the actual growth came from the Islamic sector of the population.
- on September 9, 2009 at 4:00 am | Reply tinyfrog
  
  “He told me that there were regular seminars held by visiting Muslim clerics who made substantially the same claims made in the video…. Have you deliberately left out the quote by Muammar al-Gaddafi?”
  
  Just because someone says they’re “taking over” doesn’t mean it’s true. Sometimes, people say things that they want to believe. I think people often self-indulge in a bit of “triumphalism” – they want to believe their group is ‘taking over the world’. Not only does triumphalism make the believers more confident in the rightness of their own beliefs, but makes them feel that they are the future and the future looks bright.
  
  I could also point out that there has been a decline in the percentage of European muslims who actually attend mosque.
  
  “The logic is flawed in the argument that it is possible to reverse the birth rate. There is a non sequitur when you point out that France’s birth-rate increased, rather than declined, without identifying the SOURCE of that growth.”
  
  That may be, but France’s population in 1945 was 40 million. It currently stands at 62 million. How much of that was due to Muslim immigration or birth rates? Well, you could argue that all of it is due to Muslim immigration/birthrates if you could claim 22 million (or 35%) of France’s population is Muslim. The BBC is claiming that France’s Muslim population is “Five to six million (8-9.6%)” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm).
on September 5, 2009 at 4:55 am | Reply C.M.

Tinyfrog, just where do you originate from? Are you an American? What ethnicity are you? It is quite obvious that you must lean left in your political/social views.

Do you seriously think that is the only reason the NRA makes claims that “they’ll take your guns away” to drive up donations? Try checking out the laws that the U.S. government are trying to pass – believe me that is exactly what they are trying to do.

You seriously need to try doing some research on the Islam thing, try googling Europe/Muslims. You blame the fear mongering “right-wing” American Christians – I do believe the English, Germans, Danes, French, etc. are ahead of the Americans on this.

I can only surmise that your sympathies lie with the Muslim world because perhaps you are Muslim? Your whole article and reasoning is very disingenuous, trying to smooth over the true intent of the Muslims, making them look like Mr./Mrs. Good Neighbor. I am saddened that so many people on this forum are buying into that.
- on September 9, 2009 at 3:48 am | Reply tinyfrog
  
  Yeah, I’m a muslim – as you can see from the subtitle of my blog: “Atheism, Evolution, Skepticism”. I also suggest clicking the “Islam” category to read my other Islam-related blog posts if that’s your opinion.
- on September 17, 2009 at 9:53 am | Reply steeveetee
  
  CM, just where do you originate from? Are you an American? What ethnicity are you?…
  
  ….. And what the hell has that got to do with ANYTHING? Can we just pay attention to the ARGUMENTS, please…
  - on October 14, 2009 at 5:53 pm CM
    
    steeveetee,
    
    The answer to those questions have to do with in what way tinyfrog is skewing his “facts”, etc. Read my first post on this site……..tinyfrog makes a lot of assumptions and innuendos on his information concerning the topic of this discussion. And since he is arguing that is what the makers of this video are doing he needs to own up to his own transgressions.
    
    Or do you not like to find the truth to the questions that arise from this subject? Are you one of those just blindly believe others without trying to search out the truth for yourself? I would venture to say that there is truth and fiction on both sides of this argument, as is how most things go.
  - on October 14, 2009 at 9:04 pm steeveetee
    
    CM. If you mean that tinyfrog is coming from somewhere, of course he is. But then so are you. So are we all. What tinyfrog has done, to my mind however, is to show, in a fair and responsible way, the speciousness of many of the ‘facts’ and arguments of the originial Scary Muslim Movie.
    
    In fact, he makes the whole case falls down as a bit of propagandising.
    
    He demonstrates that it is in no way an attempt to discover the truth about anything. Rather the opposite. It’s main function is to hide the truth, dupe people who don’t know much about Europe, Muslims, birth rates or demographics. But I’m glad to say that the fact that hardly anyone else now seems to be debating this on the site, suggests people have been convinced of his logic and arguments – and Scary Muslim Movie has been totally discredited.
    
    By the way, your argument that there are always two sides to any arguments is true. But, as in a court case, people bring arguments and logic to bear and come up with the most likely ‘explanation’. So, would you say, for example, that there may be two views about the Holocaust happening or not – but each is equally valid? Or that any version of who was responsible for 9/11 is equally valid? I doubt it.
on September 17, 2009 at 3:29 am | Reply Rick

Your claim that Muslims would have to have 26 children to make up 50% of births in the Netherlands shows that you don’t understand much about demography. I strongly suspect that the age distribution of the Muslim population is predominantly of childbearing age or younger, while the non-Muslim population has a large cohort of baby-boomers who are past childbearing age. Making some rough assumptions about age distribution, Muslims could account for 50% of all newborns with each couple averaging 6 children compared to an average of just over 1 child per non-Muslim couple. The real numbers may be higher or lower, but your calculations are absurd on their face, whereas the 50% claim–although surprising–is not.
- on September 17, 2009 at 9:46 am | Reply steeveetee
  
  “I strongly suspect…’ most Muslims are of childbearing age? Really? Until you provide some proof for this, your ’suspicions’ are worthless. Facts please.
  
  Likewise can we have some data for the ‘rough assumptions’ that Muslims ‘could’ account for 50% of newborns… and that the ‘non-Muslims’ population ‘has’ a large cohort of baby-boomers past childbearing age.
  
  Muslims ‘could’ average 6 children as compared to an average of 1 one child per for non-Muslims? This is ‘true’ – only if you want to pluck the most credible scary number out of the ether to back up your fantasy. (why not 5, or 8, for example?)
  
  This is all specious argument. And nonsense.
  
  In the meantime, you should learn a little humility. Your claim that Tinyfrog ‘knows nothing about demographics’ would be laughable if it wasn’t so insulting. Unless you come up with some clear – and logical – refutations, I think this area of ‘debate’ is pretty much over.
  - on October 19, 2009 at 5:13 pm CM
    
    steevetee,
    
    Why do you do this to people’s posts? Rick’s post says “shows you don’t UNDERSTAND (emphasis mine) much about demography”. He did not say Tinyfrog “knows NOTHING (emphasis mine) about demographics”. It is this type of distortion that is dishonest and gives people the wrong impressions.
    
    I think that it what is wrong with half the world, and liberal people in particular – they have all failed at comprehension. Just can not assimilate what they are reading.
- on October 21, 2009 at 9:12 pm | Reply Nicolas Krebs
  
  Rick, you are right about not forgot age distribution. Making some rough assumptions about age distribution, Muslims could account for 50% of all birth in Netherlands with only 6% of the population and 15 children/woman fertility rate.
  
  According to http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/download/download-2008/ and http://www.prb.org/Publications/Datasheets/2009/2009wpds.aspx?p=1 no muslim country (and no country at all) in the world has fertility rate higher than 7 children/woman. According to http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx?p=1 muslims living in Netherlands have fertility rate about 3 children/woman (fifth than the required 15 children/woman) and decreasing.
  
  “The real numbers may be higher or lower, but your calculations are absurd on their face, whereas the 50% claim–although surprising–is not.”
  
  The “50% claim” is obviously false and absurd, and of course no source is given.
on October 15, 2009 at 4:01 am | Reply CM

steeveetee,

You can not be seriously comparing the Holocaust to this video on “Muslim Demographics”???? I have never heard anyone but Muslims deny the Holocaust. How interesting that you would actually use this as a comparison.

As far as 9/11 and the Holocaust you are talking about history, the “Muslim Demographics” video is dealing with projections of the future. Hardly a viable comparison.

There are people that have made comments on this site with valid arguments to what tinyfrog is saying, yet you completely dismiss them as you want to believe everything tinyfrog tells you. That I do not understand.

I have only pointed out that tinyfrog has made assumptions and innuendos that he has presented as truth and facts. Lord almighty if you read his commentary you should be able to see this. Fair and responsible only result when you use facts, which he/she has not done.

I disagree with your assumptions as to why no one is debating this subject on this site. I would tend to say that it is more because it doesn’t really much matter if someone shows how tinyfrog is skewing the information, those that want to blindly follow tinyfrog will choose to do so.

Please do not make the assumption that I completely agree with said video. I have read other information on this subject, and I do believe that there is truth to this subject. My belief has more to do with what I have read on how other countries and their inhabitants feel about the Muslim immigration issues. I also believe that this video has done some exaggerating.
on October 18, 2009 at 4:32 am | Reply indovertiser

nice post, recomended article, thanks for sharing
on October 18, 2009 at 11:13 pm | Reply punky238

here what it is the king of saudi arabia are teeling people to go movie some where else well muslim thnik that they should take over the world
- on October 19, 2009 at 5:17 pm | Reply CM
  
  Oh punky238! I can decipher what you are saying, but half or more of the people on this forum won’t! Though I don’t want to believe what you say is true I am forced to do so.
on November 3, 2009 at 11:07 am | Reply C.M.

Okay all you naysayers, take a look at this, then what say you???

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783

And please don’t just reply that it is fear mongering.

If that is so, what about this link?

http://www.reformislam.org/

And in regard to the above link, why in this link have they completely omitted the section Surah 9 (Ultimatum) in the Qur’an?? If they want to fight this fight, they need to leave it in there and address it, not ignore it.

Illusions of peace.
- on November 3, 2009 at 1:11 pm | Reply steeveetee
  
  CM. Brother, what’s this got to do with Muslim Demographics?
  
  Mate, go and get a life. Go and meet some actual Muslims. There are quite a few of them round the world. Most of them are family-loving, ordinary, hardworking and enterprising people who look after their neighbours. Talk to them. Go with them for a meal. The food’s great – from five continents. Drink some mint tea. Puff on a shisha pipe. Have a good chat. Meet the kids. Listen to some music with them. Dance. Read some history. Look at some geography. Travel a bit. Experience the hospitality. RELAX.
  
  Morocco is a very beautiful country from my own experience. So is Lebanon. Go to the Bekaa. Drink some Arak. Damascus is said to be unspoilt and fabulous. Chill out brother. Life is too short for hatred. But even shorter for ignorance. And if you’re still nervous, I’ll show you around. Brick Lane, London for a curry on a Friday night. Edgware Road for some apple hubble bubble. Then off on the Eurostar to see the Mosquet in Paris with it’s nice little cafe – and great cakes.
  
  Or, if you’d prefer something a bit nearer home, and Istanbul or Cairo is too far, there’s a lovely mosque in Culver City that’s worth a visit just for the architecture. I’ve been there. Ok, it’s called the King Fahad Mosque but if his friendship was good enough for George Bush Snr during Desert Storm, it ought to be good enough for any patriotic American.
on November 3, 2009 at 9:46 pm | Reply C.M.

Must have touched a raw nerve, hey, mate? What this has to do with Muslim Demographics is what the whole point was in the Muslim Demographics video. Duh. Their whole goal is to rule the world, duh. Part of the plan is to, oh my gosh, over populate all countries.

There are people on this site that are “Oh, let’s have peace, love and whatever with all these wonderful Muslim people”, and all the while there is this undercurrent of Muslims that would just as soon chop your head off.

But that is okay, you just keep your delusional thoughts, “Don’t worry, be happy”………..

And thanks, but no thanks, I do not care to associate with people that want to kill me.

Oh gee, I must be a christian, right wing loon…………..

Oh, and neither George H. W.Bush or George W. Bush is/are/were patriots. Guess being from what, Great Britain, you wouldn’t realize that would you?

Very interesting how you have not addressed my question. I would have to assume you have no answer.

Ta, ta, mate.
- on November 4, 2009 at 2:01 am | Reply steeveetee
  
  No. I’m serious. Confront your demons. You name the location. Let’s walk round together and talk about it. Brick Lane or Edgware Road, London; 10980 Washington Blvd, Culver City; Essaouira, Morocco; Dahieh, Lebanon. Let’s meet some real Muslim people and then have this conversation. Stop generalising, stop talking out of your arse and see what it’s really like.
  
  My friend’s mum, for example. She’s a Muslim. Single parent. Two grown up daughters. Came from Mozambique not speaking a word of English. Married at 18 but walked out on her bastard hubby ten years later, taking the kids. Having time off at the moment from her clerical work in a government office to fight her breast cancer. Goes for a very painful chemo treatment every third Tuesday. Hates the hijab but wears a rather bonny scarf at the moment to hide the fact she’s lost all her hair. About which irony we can joke.
  
  Her daughter’s bi-sexual, by the way. She’s just been in Paris with some gay friends of ours – lesbians. Both of whom her mum loves, and loves to to have stay when they come to London.
  
  She still has verses from the Koran on her fridge though. And prays regularly.
  
  Of course, she’s not typical. But who is? Have you been round London recently? Have you seen all the teenagers and young women on the tube in their fashion-hijab? Fashion-jilbab? Eye-makeup, blusher and lipstick an inch thick. Their clothes a riot of colour and self-advertisement.
  
  Of course, you may want to say this proves your point about the Islamification of Europe. But then you hear them on their mobiles – talking in street slang about – and to – boys; about Michael Jackson, shopping at Primark and who’s in and who’s out on the X Factor. And the accent is pure Ali G, innit!
  
  So where does that leave us? With complexity. By all means look at Scary Muslim movies. But if that is your only source of information about reality, then your thoughts and actions are going to be horribly skewed and unbalanced. Knowlege is power, as we all know. And one of the most obvious sources of knowledge is contact with the human beings involved. In this case, Muslims.
  
  So, it was meant as a genuine question. Will you do the trip?

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