Common Sense Atheism linked to a video the other day about fertility rates in Europe and in Muslim countries. The point of the video is to say that Europe will be predominantly Muslim within fifty years or less, as a result of low birthrates among native Europeans and high birthrates among Muslim immigrants. I’ve seen these arguments over the past few years. It’s stuff promoted mainly by American Right-wing Christians, often with dire warnings that Europe will be Islamicized within 50 years, and America will stand alone in the world. For example, here’s a sample:
If there is anything that should make Americans’ blood run cold about immigration, it is the sight of Europe—and Britain, the home of Western civilization—being buried by millions of Muslim colonists. Europe is just hoping against hope that Islam isn’t going to explode into massive rioting (or worse), or impose total cultural Islamification.
…
Now the triumphs of Tours and Vienna are being trampled by immigrants, entering mostly legally. It’s a wonder the Muslims bother with terrorism at all when demography is working so well for them.Europe’s swirl down the toilet bowl is little reported in this country largely because the Main Stream Media is not interested in showing it. The top media elites are still stuck on multiculturalism. But the European experience shows what a bogus ideology that is. (Source)
So, how accurate is this video?
Claim: “Historically, no culture has ever reversed a 1.9 fertility rate.”
They provide no source for this claim. However, birth rates do vary over time, and have increased. For example, here’s an image of France’s population over the past two centuries. As you can see, the population size barely changes between 1890 and 1945. Since 1945, the population has grown by 50%. The current fertility rate in France is about 2 children per person.
Wikipedia states:
After 1947 however, France suddenly underwent a demographic recovery that no one could have foreseen. It is a fact that in the 1930s the French government, alarmed by the decline of France’s population, had passed laws to boost the birth rate, giving state benefits to families with children. Nonetheless, no one can quite satisfactorily explain this sudden and unexpected recovery in the demography of France, which was often portrayed as a “miracle” inside France. This demographic recovery was again atypical in the Western World, in the sense that although the rest of the Western World experienced a baby boom immediately after the war, the baby boom in France was much stronger, and above all it lasted longer than in most other countries of the Western World (the United States being one of the few exceptions). In the 1950s and 1960s France enjoyed a population growth of 1% a year, which is the highest growth in the history of France, not even matched in the best periods of the 18th or 19th centuries.
Claim: “A rate of 1.3: impossible to reverse… There is no economic model that can sustain itself during that time.”
It’s true that declining birth rates cause a lot of problems for nations; it’s difficult for workers to pay enough taxes to support the retired generation. A lot of countries (including east-asian countries like Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan) are very worried about this problem.
These numbers are almost right. It’s true that these nations are declining in population. According to nationmaster (which took it’s numbers from the CIA World Factbook), the actual fertility rates are:
France | 1.98 |
England | 1.66 |
Greece | 1.36 |
Germany | 1.41 |
Italy | 1.3 |
Spain | 1.3 |
It’s also worth noting that the fertility rates of these nations have been rising slightly over the past five years. Here’s a look at the historical data:
Spain, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 1.26 |
2004 | 1.27 |
2005 | 1.28 |
2006 | 1.28 |
2007 | 1.29 |
2008 | 1.3 |
France, historical fertility rates: (*note: France reversed a fertility rate that dropped below 1.9)
2003 | 1.85 |
2004 | 1.85 |
2005 | 1.85 |
2006 | 1.84 |
2007 | 1.98 |
2008 | 1.98 |
Germany, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 1.37 |
2004 | 1.38 |
2005 | 1.39 |
2006 | 1.39 |
2007 | 1.4 |
2008 | 1.41 |
Italy, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 1.26 |
2004 | 1.27 |
2005 | 1.28 |
2006 | 1.28 |
2007 | 1.29 |
2008 | 1.3 |
(According to the nationmaster numbers, the UK’s and Greece’ fertility rate stayed relatively constant across the 2003-2008 time period.)
1.3-1.5 sounds approximately right. The highest fertility rate in Europe is 2.02 (Albania), and eastern Europe has some of the lowest fertility rates (Poland 1.27, Ukraine 1.25, Lithuania 1.22).
Claim: “France: 1.8 Children per family, Muslims: 8.1.”
They list of source for this claim, but it’s too small to read. This claim is almost certainly false. First, there isn’t a country in the whole world that has a fertility rate of 8 children, so I doubt that millions of Muslims in France’s are having that many children.
While it’s true that many Muslim nations have high fertility rates (Yemen 6.41, Gaza Strip 5.19, Saudi Arabia 3.89), not all of them do. While I have no source for Muslim birthrates in France, I do know where most of France’s immigrants come from: they come from France’s former colonies. Here’s a map of French immigration by nation:
You can quickly pick out that France’s Muslim immigration comes mainly from four countries: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Turkey.
What are the fertility rates in these countries?
Morocco | 2.57 |
Algeria | 1.82 |
Tunisia | 1.73 |
Turkey | 1.87 |
Now, it looks very suspicious when they claim French Muslims are averaging 8.1 children per person. In fact, the birthrates in their original countries are lower than birthrates in France. I have a hard time believing that they suddenly become hyperfertile when they live in France.
I had actually read an article a few years ago (again, by an Christian-Right author). He talked about how he met a Palestinian woman living in Paris who was raising her 6 children. He then implied that all French Muslims were having this many children. Of course, that was a huge generalization. It’s true that Palestinians (on average) have a lot of children, but it’s false to claim that most Muslims living in France (most of them not from Palestine) were having this many children. Yet, he tried to slide this claim past his readers.
Claim: “In the Netherlands, 50% of all newborns are Muslim.”
That same article I read a few years ago claimed that 50% of all newborns within a particular Dutch city were Muslim (which may or may not be accurate). I have to wonder if that claim was generalized to “In the Netherlands, 50% of all newborns are Muslim.”
There are approximately 1 million Muslims in the Netherlands, a nation of 16.6 million people. So Muslims makeup about 6% of the total population. Yet, we’re supposed to believe 50% of the children born in the Netherlands are Muslim? The fertility rate in the Netherlands is 1.66 children per person. Mathematically, Muslims in the Netherlands would need to have 26 children to makeup 50% of the births in the country.
Further, if we look at the countries of origin of these Muslims, we find that 2/3rds immigrated from Turkey (1.87 fertility rate) or Morocco (2.57 fertility rate).
Claim: “In only 15 years, half of the population of the Netherlands will be Muslim.”
It makes my head hurt to figure out how 1 million Muslims will outnumber 15.6 million non-Muslims in 15 years.
Claim: “In Russia, there are over 23 million Muslims, that’s 1 out of 5 Russians.”
According to Wikipedia:
According to the most recent estimates by the R&F Agency, there are more than 20 million officially self-identified Muslims in Russia, a number that has risen by 40% in the last 15 years, though no more than 6 million are truly orthodox. Roman Silantyev, a Russian Islamologist has estimated that there are only between 7 and 9 million people who practise Islam in Russia, and that the rest are only Muslims by ethnicity.
Also, Russia’s population is 140 million. Even if “23 million muslims” was accurate, that’s 16.4%, not 1 out of 5 (or 20%).
Claim: “Currently in Belgium, 25% of the population and 50% of all newborns are Muslim.”
Wikipedia states:
An 2008 estimation shows that 6% of the Belgian population, about 628,751, is Muslim (98% Sunni). Muslims cover 25.5% of the population of Brussels, 4.0% of Wallonia and 3.9% of Flanders.
Maybe they mixed up “Brussels” and “Belgium”. Regardless, they inflated the percentage of Muslims in Belgium from 6% to 25%.
Again, we see the same pattern of immigration as we saw in the Netherlands – 2/3rds are Moroccans and Turkish immigrants – whose home countries have relatively low birthrates (2.57 and 1.87, respectively).
Claim: “1/3rd of all European children will be born to Muslim families by 2025, just 17 years away.”
That doesn’t seem very likely considering that Muslims currently makeup “4 percent of the European Union’s population” (Source). This particular claim about “1/3rd of all European children” appears to come from the Right-wing Brussel’s Journal.
Claim: “The German Government, the first to talk about this publicly, recently released a public saying, ‘the fall in the German population can no longer be stopped. Its downward spiral is no longer reversible… It will be a Muslim state by 2050.”
Considering that Muslims makeup 4.0% of the German population, that statement seems over the top. More than 90% of them are Turkish (fertility rate in Turkey: 1.87). A quick google search credits Walter Rademacher, vice-president of the German statistics office, with the quote.
So, do you believe that the “German Government” issued that statement? Are you wondering what Walter Rademacher actually said?
BERLIN, Germany, November 9, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Germany’s downward spiral in population is no longer reversible, the country’s federal statistics office said Tuesday. The birthrate has dropped so low that immigration numbers cannot compensate.
“The fall in the population can no longer be stopped,” vice-president Walter Rademacher with the Federal Statistics Office said, reported Agence France-Presse.
Germany has the lowest birthrate in Europe, with an average of 1.36 children per woman. Despite government incentives to encourage larger families, the population is dropping rapidly and that trend will continue, with an expected loss of as much as 12 million by 2050. That would mean about a 15 percent drop from the country’s current population of 82.4 million, the German news source Deutsche Welle reported today.
…
Germany has one of the largest populations of Muslim immigrants in Western Europe, with a Muslim community of over 3 million. That trend is expected to continue, leading some demographic trend-watchers to warn that the country is well on the way to becoming a Muslim state by 2050, Deutsche Welle reported.The [Right Wing] Brussels Journal reported last month that one third of all European children will be born to Muslim families by 2025. There are an estimated 50 million Muslims living in Europe today–that number is expected to double over the next twenty years.
(Source)
Wow. There’s two major distortions here:
(1) They credit the “Germany Federal Statistics Office” with the statement that “[Germany] will be a Muslim state by 2050”, when it was actually a statement made by a vague group identified as “some demographic trend-watchers”. Immediately, in the next paragraph, they mention the right-wing Brussels Journal – leading me to suspect that they are the “demographic trend-watchers”.
(2) The quote was twisted from “is well on the way to becoming a Muslim state by 2050″ into “It will be a Muslim state by 2050”.
Claim: “There are currently 52 million Muslims in Europe. The German government said that number is expected to double in the next 20 years to 104 million.”
The EU population is 491 million, 4% (19.6 million) of which are Muslim (Source).
Claim: “In the United States, the current fertility rate of American citizens is 1.6. With the influx of the latino nations, the rate increases to 2.11; the bare minimum needed to sustain a culture.”
Considering that latinos makeup only 13% of the US population, it’s hard to believe they can single-handedly bring-up the fertility rate from 1.6 to 2.11.
Looking up actual data (1, 2) reveals this fertility rate for American women (2004):
White | 2.05 |
Black | 2.03 |
American Indian | 1.73 |
Asian | 1.89 |
Hispanic | 2.82 |
Total | 2.04 |
(I think the “White” category includes “non-hispanic white” and “hispanic white” into the same category. If that’s true, then the non-hispanic white fertility rate would be around 1.8-1.9.)
Claim: “Today, there are over 9 million [muslims in the United States]”.
Reality? No one really knows. Estimates vary between 1.1 million and 8 million.
Not very likely.
This wasn’t specifically argued in the video, but I should also add that the fertility rates among Muslims (in their own countries) is also declining.
For example:
Saudi Arabia, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 6.15 (* is this accurate?) |
2004 | 4.11 |
2005 | 4.05 |
2006 | 4 |
2007 | 3.94 |
2008 | 3.89 |
And the three largest Muslim countries:
Indonesia, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 2.5 |
2004 | 2.47 |
2005 | 2.44 |
2006 | 2.4 |
2007 | 2.38 |
2008 | 2.34 |
Pakistan, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 4.1 |
2004 | 4.29 |
2005 | 4.14 |
2006 | 4 |
2007 | 3.71 |
2008 | 3.73 |
Bangladesh, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 3.17 |
2004 | 3.15 |
2005 | 3.13 |
2006 | 3.11 |
2007 | 3.09 |
2008 | 3.08 |
And let’s not forget that some Muslim countries have already fallen below the replacement number of 2.11 (and, supposedly, below the mythical 1.9 fertility rate that the video says is very, very bad). When you look at the three most populous countries of the Middle East (Egypt, 79 million; Turkey, 70 million; Iran, 69 million), you find that Turkey and Iran have already dropped below a fertility rate of 2.0. Egypt recently dropped below a fertility rate of 3.0, and the Egyptian government is aiming to get it down to 2.0 within 8 years. All three are experiencing a decline in their fertility rates.
Egypt, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 3.02 |
2004 | 2.95 |
2005 | 2.88 |
2006 | 2.83 |
2007 | 2.77 |
2008 | 2.72 |
Turkey, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 2.03 |
2004 | 1.98 |
2005 | 1.94 |
2006 | 1.92 |
2007 | 1.89 |
2008 | 1.87 |
Iran, historical fertility rates:
2003 | 1.99 |
2004 | 1.93 |
2005 | 1.82 |
2006 | 1.8 |
2007 | 1.71 |
2008 | 1.71 |
While their numbers are exaggerated, your premise of basing expecting birthrates of Muslim immigrants upon their native birthrates is also flawed. Infant mortality is calculated into the birthrate figures; if mortality is lower is Europe than where they come from, their birthrate would be higher.
jonolan, the video claims that the muslim birthrate in France is 8.1. This isn’t an exaggeration, it’s an outright lie.
Imagine what you’re saying is true and that in France -where infant mortality is supposedly lower- they have as many attempted births as they do back home. Imagine for argument’s sake that France has ZERO infant mortality. That means they attempt 8.1 births per woman, all successful. Now, if they were in Morocco (birthrate 2.57) and had 8.1 attempted births per woman, that means that, on average, each woman has over 5 infants dying at (or soon after) birth!!! THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS. The actual infant mortality rate in Morocco is ~40 deaths for every 1000 live births (do the math).
Moreover, people are inclined to have a certain number of children which is not related to the infant mortality rate. If they wanted to have 8 children per family in a country with a ridiculously high mortality rate, they would just get pregnant a lot more often (i.e. more attempts). It is FAR MORE LOGICAL to assume that in Morocco they attempt to have between 2-3 children, and if they immigrate to a country with lower mortality rates, they will simply stop getting pregnant once they reach the desired number.
I was only pointing out that both the video and tinyfrog’s response to it were based on flawed data and suppositions.
Yours are as well actually. You assume that the Muslims don’t want more than 2-3 children and not 8.
Jonolan,
You’re ignoring the numbers I gave you and you didn’t do the math (it was rhetorical, but I guess I have to do it).
FACT: The actual infant mortality rate in Morocco is ~40 deaths for every 1000 live births.
That means that, on average, if a woman in Morocco were to attempt to have 1040 babies, 40 of them would die. A less than 4% chance that a child will die at (or soon after) birth for any given birth attempt.
Supposing a woman would normally give birth from 18 to 45 years of age, and that she can only have 1 child every 1.5 years, she could have -at most- 18 children. Hell, let’s make it even more rare to account for unexpected events (illnesses, whatever) – she can have 1 child every 2 years, giving her a maximum of 13.5 children (on average). On average, 0.5 of these children would die, given the infant mortality rate in Morocco. That leaves her with a potential of having 13 children.
You think if she wanted 8 children, she couldn’t pull it off EASILY (and with 5 attempts to spare…)?
FACT: The fertility rate in Morocco is 2.57, meaning that families actually have many fewer children than they could, based on the mortality rate.
You mentioned the infant mortality rate as the reason why there would be a discrepancy between fertility rate at home and in a western country. I’ve now demonstrated -with actual figures- that this does not nearly account for such a huge difference (2.57 to 8). Your claim is simply not reasonable.
“if mortality is lower is Europe than where they come from, their birthrate would be higher.” Only by the tiniest of fraction. If we are to pretend that you are actually interested in knowing the answer to this question I strongly recommend this report. http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/FutureGlobalMuslimPopulation-WebPDF-Feb10.pdf
tinyfrog,
You are amazing. Thanks for all your hard work!
[…] tinyfrog’s analysis of these numbers is here. Conclusion: Most of the numbers are just plain wrong. As I should have expected, the video is […]
Good work!
I do believe the fertility rate for muslims in socialistic western countries is higher than in their home country. The fact that they are paid well will make them have more children (like in Germany the social benefit is 164 euro per child and they pay your salary in the first 14 months for every child. The pay even a lot more (300 euro per child extra) if you succeed to have your next child within a certain period of time and in that case the social benefit per child goes also up to 195 euro for the fourth child. All these benefits are paid net, no tax. Source (Dutch): http://www.droomhuisduitsland.com/informatie/kinderbijslag )
…and these amounts are per month!
Thanks for the hard work and scrutinizing, here.
“I have a hard time believing that they [immigrants] suddenly become hyperfertile when they live in France.” Ah, you underestimate French men and the allure of French women! 😉
While jonolan makes an interesting observation that infant mortality is lower in Europe, and that will make fertility rates from their home countries even higher, I think using their home rates is probably the best predictor. In fact, fertility rates could be lower in the new country than in their home countries.
The term “culture” is used a lot in the video, promoting the fear that the original culture will be lost to immigrants. The immigrant profile has to be more complex than trying to bring their culture to a new land. In many cases, they are fleeing their home countries and purposefully shedding some of that culture. At the same time, in their new environment, they may want to assimilate. In fact, a country’s economy, government, policies, and culture already in place demand that immigrants adopt. I can see where immigrants would be more likely to adopt the new culture than to infiltrate their own.
There are scares of Latinos replacing “American” culture. Indeed, they have extensive media networks and neighborhoods. While I see a lot of Mexican pride on display in Denver (and like many Americans will take the opportunity to partake in a Mexican libation in two days) these 2nd and 3rd generation Mexicans speak English as their primary language and seem to associate themselves as “American” over “Mexican”.
Point is, the demographic of the Muslims immigrating to other countries may be different than the demographic of Muslims remaining in the country of origin. Furthermore, the idea that these immigrants will instill their culture at the expense of the existing culture is fear mongering and ignorant. I would think immigrants would be trying to borrow the best of both cultures as best they can while simply just trying to make ends meet. It’s racist and alarmist to assume the culture we cultivate will be unappreciated by Muslims out to infiltrate the world.
[…] Muslim Demographics — 5:37am via Google Reader Racism pretending to be science. Always annoying and […]
Tiny Frog, amazing work, kudos and it made me feel slightly better.
I also don’t think you can just take the birthrate of the home countries as a straight predictor for the birthrate in the new countries. Immigrants, from Americans to Turks, cling to traditions to the point over exaggeration.
This means that there are two opposing forces influencing the birth rate:
– a better health infrastructure will most likely increase it, as will the sense of safety, people don’t breed more easily in war situations
– a higher wealth will lead to less children, since they don’t need so much kids by way of pension money.
It might all even out.
We just don’t know, until we measure it.
Again, Tinyfrog, thanks for all your hard work, it cannot be very uplifting to try to be precise in refuting these vile and toxic stories.
I checked them by myself before I stumbled on the website.
You did a great job. (Like I did)
But you forgot to notice that the highest birth rates
are still from Mainly africans.
then mainly Muslim ones
and finally from Latin ones.
So his premise is still correct as far as the TREND.
People with Money (Europeans and americans)
want CHEAP labor so they can maintain their lifestyle
and that labor will come from
AFRICA and Arab countries for the Europeans.
Latinos for the Americans.
Personally I don’t care as I love racing the kenyans.
I enjoy a Shawarma in a Pita.
I love seviche
But just a thought
I agree. Great job deconstructing the premise of this video. It is entirely inflated in the numbers and assumptions. Clearly biased. It’s really common sense here and some math too. All immigrants will assimilate into their adoptive culuture;to some extent or another… This is undeniable. It is preposterous to say that Muslim women are having 8.1 children in France while in Turkey,Tunisia, Egypt and other Muslim countries they are having less. Less than France! I tried to look up statistical data for birthrate in France among Islams and guess what? France has not done any research on the matter. So where is this video getting their information. In addition, I know many muslims and none of them have more than 1-3 siblings. The premise that immigrants are having more children to get more government assistance is a myth too.
Citing wikipedia as a source? Come on – that is very weak support for your criticism!! Also I saw the video clip – I don’t recall the 8.1 figure showing up anywhere. Also – I think you have ignored the impact of immigration – the coupling of immigration and high birth rates could make the scenario proposed in the video real.
> Also I saw the video clip – I don’t recall the 8.1 figure showing up anywhere.
My screenshot comes from the video – it appears between 2:47 and 3:00 in the video.
2.53 gives the number of 8.1 children born of muslim women in France. Wikipedia is definately a realiable source for information because it is held up to scrutiny by all. Is it the best source? no, but statistical data is taken from governmental sites and put on wikipedia. I find it to be very reliable.
el gato,
What sources do you normally draw upon and how well did you watch the video and read tiny’s commentary? Wikipedia is often a good source for information because it is transparent, and therefore editable by anyone for correctness. It may not be the BEST source, but the self-policing of wikipedia is what makes it work. It’s the way the science community works, too. It’s an effective way to disseminate truth. Furthermore, you can read any Wikipedia article for sources for its claims and determine if they are valid sources or not. If you read this Wiki that Tiny used, you will find that its numbers are from French census data. This census data, like Tiny’s critique, accounted for immigration rates. At 2:51 into the video is where you get the 8.1 birthrate figure.
Keep glossing over things and accept sound-bite headlines if you want, but if you want to critique Tiny’s critique, dig into things deeper. Play with the numbers like Tiny did. Couple immigration rates you find from valid sources with what you find to be appropriate birth rates to support the videos claims, if you are to accept that it could even be real. Build scenarios and formulate opinions that are worthy of a more meaningful argument.
From a German perspective: Here in Berlin we notice that immigrant populations cling to traditional values much stronger than we native Germans do, and as populations mix only very slowly, this holds for 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants as well. One aspect of this are values derived from a very orthodox and illiberal variety of Islam. As immigrants do not feel welcome they tend to oppose “Western” values.
This may very well become a problem. Some of these people put religious values over legal / constitutional values, e.g. gender equality, homosexuality or others. If you consider that at the same time immigrant populations with a Muslim backgraound – naturalized or not – are hit harder by unemployment, low level of schooling etc., there are problems arising.
The “8.1 birthrate” figure may stem from statements such as “women in these countries have up to 8 or more children”. So the figure is a) a max value, not an average, and b) it does not consider child mortality. The authors rely only on such statistics that are fabricated by themselves.
> The “8.1 birthrate” figure may stem from statements such as “women in these countries have up to 8 or more children”.
The video clearly implies that this is an average. Besides, what would “up to 8.1 children per family” mean anyway? Families have up to 8 or upto 9 children. It doesn’t make any sense to say “up to 8.1 children”. Besides, I knew a (white) guy here in the US who came from a family of 11. Does that mean we can say Americans have up to 11 children. That’s not a very useful metric. Average number of children is a useful metric. (Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your point. Maybe you’re explaining how they confused “8 or more children” and misinterpreted that as “an average of 8.1 children”.)
> it does not consider child mortality
I’m not sure that child mortality makes much of a difference. The child mortality of Algeria is 32 per 1000, which works out to 3.2%. The child mortality rate in France is 4 per 1000, or 0.4%. So, by moving from Algeria to France, the child mortality rate drops by 2.8%. That would transform a 2.0 fertility rate into 2.05. That’s not a big difference.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_inf_mor_rat-health-infant-mortality-rate
Now that I have read this blog, I think that someone should sue the guy that uploaded that propaganda video on YouTube. It is full of lies and not based on facts.
[…] Muslim Demographics « Tiny Frog […]
Danish women almost outfucking muslim fems! 😉
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2009/05/06/083729.htm
engelsk
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/05/denmark-immigrantsdanes-have-same.html
Excellent exposure of this propaganda film. I am actually quite sceptical about immigration, but some of these ‘facts’ were just so obviously false even I couldn’t take it seriously.
As others remarked you are a bit off on comparing birthrates with the immigrants to those still in their country of origin. I’m actually surprised they are so low over there.
I’ve done some research after seeing this video (I normally couldn’t care less, but I see links appearing to this movie all over the internet, so I figured it needs to be exposed).
Here are some of my findings about his claims about my own country:
“50% of all people in the Netherlands will be muslim within 15 years”
Absolute nonsense. To achieve this, it would require and increase of over 7 million muslims. There is no way this will happen in such a short time.
According to statistics, expectations are that in 2050 ~2.900.00 million people will be of non-western descent
(this includes lots of non-muslims) on a total population of 17,4 million. So even if we add 35 years to his prediction, it will most likely still not come true.
Immigration of Turks and Moroccans, what was our main source of Islamic immigrants is alot lower than it used to be. Fertility rates are still high compared to natives (and apparantly higher than in their country of origin) but have dropped dramatically since 1980. At that time it was 7,1 for Moroccans, wich was down to 3,3 in 2002. Turks used to have 4,3 wich was down to 2,4 in 2002. And this is just from the first generation, mostly uneducated women who were not born here. It will probably be even lower for those who are born here, get an education and who can get a decent job. Anyway, I can’t see how they would breed over 7 million extra muslims in 15 years at this rate.
Another interesting fact I didn’t even know until I did some research, is that since 2003 the number of Turks and Moroccans who emigrated back to their country of origin, has also increased dramatically. By the thousands! For Turks for example, it went from ~1100 in 2003 to ~4500 in 2007. In 2007 we had about 3500 Turkish immigrants, so there are actually more leaving then coming in.
The claim that 50& of all newborns are muslim is also false. In 2003, 19% of all newborns were of foreign descent, wich includes western foreigners and non-western (non-muslim) groups.
In the 3 biggest cities, it might be true but even there I have doubts. In Rotterdam with about 583.000 people, those of foreign descent number at 40-45% and I guess about 20% is muslim. This is hard to tell for sure though, because besides Turks and Moroccans (8% and 6%) most other groups (Rotterdam has people with over a 100 different nationalities) are just lumped into the big pile of ‘other non-western foreigners’ in te statistics.
Source is mainly the Central Bureau of Statistics ( http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/home/default.htm?Languageswitch=on ), the authority on statistics in the Netherlands. Even though nutjobs on the far-right will always claim everything all it produces is government propaganda and that it’s a leftist conspiracy to mislead them.
You are frightened by these statistics because of xenophobia.
There’s nothing wrong with Muslims in Europe and America, they are great people.
Christianity isn’t that much different than Islam.
Learning about Islam through a biased source isn’t learning, it’s just being brainwashed.
Take for example a Muslim learning about Christianity. Someone could make a video showing KKK members at a rally or the Spanish inquisition as representing the values of Christianity. How many prominent women are in Christianity?
Every new culture takes awhile to integrate into a new society. In America, the Irish, Italians, and Jews all had their difficulties when then first immigrated over. It’s not easy to integrate immediately. It’s precisely these types of hate filled Islamophobic people that make Muslims feel bitter about their new country instead of embracing it.
“Christianity isn’t that much different than Islam”
Statements of this nature are just as false as the “facts” presented in propaganda videos and generally come from an uniformed person – You obviously don’t know Christianity or you don’t know Islam or both!
Actually, Riz is quite correct. Obviously, there is a large difference in how Islam and Christianity view Jesus and Muhammad, but the rest is the same.
They both teach of the stories of Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, and many others. The both teach worship of one God.
Clearly, they are not the same, but no religion is closer to Islam than Christianity, and possibly vice versa.
There’s a lot of similarities between Islam and Christianity. Also there’s a lot of similarities between Islam and Judaism. The same 10 commendments that the Bible preaches also the Quran preaches. The same biblical stories are also in the Quran. Both believe in Christ, though muslims consider him a man created miraculously (from a female only) just like Adam was created (no parents). Jesus was given miracles because he was sent to the children of Israel who had received many prophets with miracles, eg. Moses who divided the sea.
Islam falls in between of Christianity and Judaism. In Judaism, it says, an eye for an eye. In Christianity, if someone hits you on one cheeck, turn the other for him. In Islam, and eye for an eye but the reward of forgiveness for those who forgive is much greater.
The main differences between christianty and Islam are
(1) Muhammed was active as a diplomat, merchant, philosopher, orator, legislator, reformer, military general.
after eight years of fighting with the Meccan tribes, his followers, who by then had grown to ten thousand, conquered Mecca. A warrior prophet
Jesus Christ was a carpenter, orator, philosopher, reformer but in the main he was a man of peace. He did not kill men women and children. he did not lead an army of fighters.
(2) The muslims are fighting and percecuting
(a) one another Sunnis and Shiites (Iraq)
(b) one another when even of the same sect (Pakistan)
(c) Christians Palestine Malaysia Sudan etc. etc.
(d) Jews Israel
(e) Buddist Border area between Thailand and Malaysia
(h) Hindus Inda
and if you look hard enough you will find more and more conflictcaused by Muslim fanatics
(3) Muhammed favourite wife he married when she was 6 years old and he consumated the marrage when she was only 9 years old He was the ultimate pedophile. He was 45 years older. not a very good example for a prophet.
With all due respect, there are a few mistruths here. The first one is close to accurate, but Muhammad only killed one man, and in self-defense.
Second, not all Muslims are fighting and persecuting. That’s like saying all Catholic priests molest children.
Third, Aisha’s age is highly debated, as different Hadiths give different ages. Others say she was older when she married, possibly sixteen.
Anon: I guess it is all a matter of perspective, isn’t it? Whose mistruths?
“Muhammad personally took part in many battles. He was also personally involved in the slaughter of the innocent Banu Qurayza tribe where up to 900 unarmed men were slaughtered and their women and children enslaved. Evidence of this can be found in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari’s Hadiths and references are made in the Qur’an to this event.”
http://islam.suite101.com/article.cfm/aisha_youngest_wife_of_the_prophet
So if you want to compare the Catholics and Muslims, at least the Catholics have spoken against the wrongs of theirs priests and have prosecuted them. All the while the major portion of Muslims SAY NOTHING of the atrocities committed by their brethren, let alone prosecute them.
At least, surprisingly, you aren’t trying to argue the well documented life of Jesus,
You’re right, C. M., I don’t argue the well-documented life of Jesus. We may agree there more than you expect.
Of course, the vast majority of Christians speak out against wrong-doing, and not just those done by priests. I believe that Muslims do the same, though their voices may not be as loud. There’s no central figure among Muslims, so it’s a very individual statement.
Anyway, that’s just my opinion.
Anon,
That is my biggest beef with the Muslim world, that they do not speak out, or if they do, as you say, no one can hear them. There are so many atrocities going on in the name of Islam, strapping suicide bombs to children, throwing acid in the faces of women, not to mention the many, many terrorist acts.
It is past time for Muslims to band together and be heard loud and clear that they condemn those committing these acts in the name of Islam.
I personally do not see this happening because I think the vast majority of them agree with what is going on, I think they are shooting for world domination and the annihilation of Christianity. But that is just my opinion garnered from all I have read, heard and researched.
The leaders of the respective religions and the nature of their followers in plain sight, should make it obvious the barbaric nature of Islam. You have to be PC-extreme or a Islamic sympathizer to try to tell yourself otherwise.
Muhammed was like Moses. Even Moses in the Bible had said to his people: that God will choose one from among the breathren a prophet like unto him.
Both Moses and Muhammed were leaders of their people. Both waged wars to defend their people and protect them. Both were exiled from their land. Both received laws. Both are brethren: Moses a descendant of Isaac. Muhammed the descendent of Ishmael.
The only difference between Muhammed and Moses is that Moses ethnically cleansed an entire population and was ordered by God to kill women, children, elderly and cattle. Christians accept this and approve of Moses actions. Meanwhile, Muhammed instructed his followers not kill women, children and cattle.
As for you claim:
(2) The muslims are fighting and percecuting
(a) one another Sunnis and Shiites (Iraq)
Iraq in unstable country. There is insurgy and you can’t associate this to the religion of Islam. Don’t forget also, that the catholics and the protestants fought and killed each other in Europe.
(b) one another when even of the same sect (Pakistan)
Few odd incidents don’t mean that it’s the actions of all muslims. How about Christians killing each other in the US, like that recent incident in a movie theatre. Or the killing of a Seikh temple.
(c) Christians Palestine Malaysia Sudan etc. etc.
Christians in Palestine have bleeded to almost no existance because of the Israeli occupation. Sudan, the south wants to separate from the north. Same kind of violence happened in other countries that wanted to separate from their original country..
(d) Jews Israel
Israel was established by European jews who immigrated to the British mendate of Palestine in the mid 1930’s. They came with the idea of zionism. That is to take over the land of the Arabs. When they became large in numbers, they started carrying terrorist attacks against the British and Arabs. Eventually waged a war by the support of world zionism and took over half the country of the Arabs by causing the exodus of millions of Palestinians from their homes. Also Israel is the only country in the world that is still holding an occupation in our current day century. All of this had led to people retaliating or either resisting the occupation.
(e) Buddist Border area between Thailand and Malaysia
There’s insurgy there too. Also the muslims there have been marginalized and descriminated against centuries before. They are also the most improvished compared to the others living in these countries. What do you expect the end result of such oppression would be.
(h) Hindus Inda
Hindus have mass slaughtered Seikh and burned muslims.
and if you look hard enough you will find more and more conflictcaused by Muslim fanatics
Also, there is no historical record that prove that Muhammed’s wife was 6 years old. This number come from some prophetic traditions (Hadith) collected 250-300 years after Muhammed’s birth. All we can deduce is that she was a virgin and she was the only virgin that Muhammed married. The rest, were either widows, elderly women with no one to support or were given as gift by other leaders like Maria the coptic, who the coptic leader gave as a gift slave to Muhammed. Muhammed was opposed to slavery and in the quran, God asks muslims to free slaves. So the prophet married her rather than keep her as a slave.
In biblical times, this was the norm. Very old men married young women. Like King David in the Bible when he was 90 years old sick in his bed, his servants suggested to bring him a 12 year old virgin to keep him warm in bed.
Same thing in te case of Virgin Mary. She was 14-16 years old, while her fiance Joseph was about 86 years old.
Also in biblical times, taking multiple wifes was a norm. King Solomon had about 99 wifes.
correcting a typo:
I ment to say “insurgency” and not “insurgy”
How many prominent women are in Christianity? What kind of silly question is that?
Women prominent in the New Testament
* Mary, the Mother of Jesus
* Mary Magdalene—one of Jesus’ closest followers
* Lydia and Phoebe
* Mary of Bethany, sister of Lazarus and disciple of Jesus. (Sometimes misidentified with Mary Magdalene)
* Priscilla— teacher with her husband Aquila, partner with Apostle Paul
[edit] Women prominent in the Early Christian Church
* Saints Perpetua and Felicity, important martyrs
* Saint Monica of Hippo
* Clotilde
* Hilda of Whitby, royal abbess in the 7th century
[edit] Women prominent in the Medieval church
* Antoinette Bourignon—a mystic
* St. Bridget of Sweden (1302–1373)
* Heloise (student of Abelard)
* Hildegard of Bingen— theologian, mystic, wrote much music (there being some recordings)
* Pope Joan – probably mythical figure.
* Julian of Norwich— a mystic
* St. Margery Kempe (c.1373–1438)
* Saint Macrina the Younger—sister and influence upon Saint Basil the Great and Saint Gregory of Nyssa
* St. Clare of Assisi—founded the Poor Clares
* St. Julian of Norwich (1342-c.1416)
* St. Scholastica—twin sister of Benedict of Nursia
[edit] Women prominent in the Catholic church (Post-Reformation)
* Mme Guyon was influential in Quietism (Christian philosophy)
* Mother Cabrini—missionary to New York and first canonized US citizen
* Mother Teresa—founder of the Missionaries of Charity in India
* St. Elizabeth Ann Seton—founded the Sisters of Charity
* St. Faustina Kowalska—promoted devotion to Divine Mercy
* St. Katharine Drexel—founded the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, which performed charitable works for Native Americans and African Americans
* St. Rose Philippine Duchesne—co-founder of the Society of the Sacred Heart
* St. Teresa of Avila a mystic
In 1970 three women were declared Doctor of the Church
* St. Catherine of Siena
* St. Teresa of Avila
* St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Feliksa Kozlowska was involved in the establishment of the Mariavite Church, a Catholic-based church one part of which accepts women priests and bishops.
[edit] Women prominent in Protestant Churches
* Anne Boleyn—influenced religious development in England indirectly by leading Henry VIII to divorce Catherine of Aragon and break from the Catholic Church
There have been a number of hymns written by women, and also psalms, from the pen of Fanny Crosby and Emily Gosse, for example.
* Aimee Semple McPherson (“Sister Aimee”) an early 20th century evangelist and founder of the Foursquare Church
* Ann Wardley—contributed to the development of the Shakers
* Catherine Booth—cofounder of the Salvation Army
* Elizabeth Fry—Quaker and prison reformer
* Ellen G. White—co-founder and prophetess of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
* Evangeline Booth—fourth General of the Salvation Army
* Hannah Whitall Smith—prominent leader in the Holiness movement
* Joanna Southcott—an 18th Century self-described religious prophetess and founder of Southcottians
* Li Tim-Oi The first female priest to be ordained in the Anglican Communion
* Louisa Maria Hubbard (1836–1906)—involved in the deaconess movement and published in 1871 a pamphlet: Anglican Deaconesses: is there No Place for Women in the System?
* Mother Ann Lee—leader of the Shakers in America
* Phoebe Palmer—prominent leader in the Holiness movement
* Selina, Countess of Huntingdon—was involved with Methodism and there was a group called the Countess of Huntingdon’s Connection
* Mary Baker Eddy—founded Christian Science
* Jackie Pullinger MBE – contemporary missionary working with inner city gangs, and founder of St Stephen’s Society in Hong Kong.
Or how about Catharine Beecher, Sojourner Truth, Frances Willard, Mother Theresa, Joyce Meyer.
http://www.localhistories.org/christwomen.html
Why then women were prohibited from voting in the 1900’s? Why were they refused equal pay as men?
Fifty years ago, Christians made up 70 percent of Bethlehem’s population; today, about 15 percent.
Indeed, the Christian population of the entire West Bank — mostly Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, with Copts, Russian Orthodox, Armenians and others — is dwindling.
But, again, the story’s the same in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere in the Mideast. Practically the only place in the region where the Christian population is growing is in Israel.
In Bethlehem, Christians now feel besieged. Growing numbers of rural southern West Bankers from the Hebron area have moved north to Bethlehem in recent years. Many see the land as Waqf — belonging to the Muslim nation. They increasingly buy or confiscate land — and talk of laws to ban Christian landownership.
The Muslims are absolutely intolerant of other religions.
They are lucky that the rest of the world does not treat them the way they treated other societies.
The Muslims are absolutely intolerant of criticism be it self or by others.
They kill/murder any person that coverts from Islam to any other religion.
Islam was born and grown by the sword it continoues to expand in third world countries and middle eastern countries by percecution intolerance guns/swords and money
Others may consider me to be Islamophobic so be it, but I consider myself as a realist.
I would rather live in any democratic country with a muslim absolute minority than a country that has a muslim majority.
Excellent post Damien, I completely agree with your last two sentences.
The Christian community in the West Bank bleeded to almost no existance because of the hardship the people face as a result of the Israeli occupation and appartheid. A large portion of Christians in Palestine were forced to leave when European jews took over the land in 1948. Many of those survivals wrote down their journey and their suffering. Try reading Edward Said, one of those who were forced to leave Jerusalem.
And yes, the people who creatd Israel were European. If you check the country of origin for each Israeli Prime Minister, each was born in the Russian empire or their parents were immigrants from the Russian Empire.
There were people living in Palestine before those people immigrated in masses from Europe in the mid 1930’s. Palestine had a thriving economy, a vibrant culture which dates back to the Byzantine Empire, with customs and traditions carried on dating back to the time of Christ. Some Palestinians to this date still speak the language spoken by Jesus Aramaic.
Palestinian coins dating back from the early 1920’s showing proof that this country was populated. There are also coins from the time of the Othaman empire.
An excellent analysis and refutation of some seriously flawed statistics.
One question remains unanswered however, is having a smaller population (either per nation or globally) necessarily a bad thing? I suspect that economists would say yes, but many others (myself included) would say no.
[…] […]
Where you say
“They list of source for this claim, but it’s too small to read.”
I put the video in High Quality and could read it:
Bryan J. Williamson
“Global Jihad: Lifting the Veil on Islam”
After searching for quite a while, I found no information on the author or the article other than that it is available for hard-copy sale from the “Virgin Mary’s Bayside Prophecies Store” on the “These Last Days Ministries” website.
The store lists it as a 20-page report and charges $5 for it. It also has a “Part 2” 24-page report available for the same price.
[…] inside France. Source An article I suggest reading in regards to that video Here. As you previously mentioned, alot of that video is just scare mongering, I’d find it more […]
All of the stats & demographics are interesting. We know they can be twisted & misused by all parties concerned, but birthrates are only interesting, because they are dooming the world in many, many ways that have neither interest nor respect for religious ideologies. The world’s real problem is being rudderless. There are no leaders- nor white nor black nor asiatic nor in nor out nor muslim nor christian nor atheistic. We have impaled ourselves on our own sword and needn’t worry about how many muslims there’ll be in 2050, because if there are fifty of each belief they will be lucky (or unlucky!
We were a defective species, not the first to extinct, but perhaps the last.
I think what Herbert Meyer says in his intelligence report is a more accurate and comprehensive assessment of our world. No spooky music either.
Click to access Intelligence_Briefing_for_CEO%27s.pdf
A key paragraph in his speech states;
“Ultimately, it’s an issue of culture. The only people who can hurt us are ourselves, by losing our culture. If we give up our Judeo-Christian culture, we become just like the Europeans. The culture war is the whole ballgame. If we lose it, there isn’t another America to pull us out.”
Thank for this good and usefull article. See also “World Factbook”, 2008 edition, CIA, https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/download/download-2008/ (and possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community ).
“However, birth rates do vary over time, and have increased. For example, here’s an image of France’s population over the past two centuries.” (tinyfrog)
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Fertility showing that french fertility rate decreased down to 1.66 in 1993, and since 1994 increasing, up to 2.0 in 2008.
“Here are some of my findings about his claims about my own country:” (Michel)
See also the figure “Fertility Decline in the Netherlands Among Women Born in the Netherlands, Morocco, and Turkey, 1990 to 2005” in Mary Mederios Kent, “Do Muslims have more children than other women in western Europe?”, Population Reference Bureau, prb.org, February 2008, http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx?p=1 .
“You are frightened by these statistics” (Riz)
I am not. On the contrary, I think it’s the funnisest video of the year (see also “The ‘hop-off-you-frogs’ prize for the silliest headline about France in the British press – generally a much-contested honour – can be awarded early this year.” in John Lichfield, “Our Man In Paris: France will never be a Muslim state”, The Independent, 2004-02-03, http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/our-man-in-paris-france-will-never-be-a-muslim-state-568594.html ).
[…] Now this video has clearly been put together by representatives of the religious right in the USA. It brings reference to religion as a key issue that may or may not be significant. It also does overstate the case and a debunking is here. […]
Tiny Frog,
Thank you for a very convincing and visually effective presentation of the facts.
I happen to be an evangelical Christian, but also a scholar of the Muslim World. As soon as “Muslim Demographics” came out, another evangelical scholar asked me to review it. I was just finishing that response when I came across your website.
What amazed me is that our sources were close to identical, and our conclusions very similar.
Very little of this presentation has any basis in fact. What basis there is has been buried by misinterpretation of those facts.
Evangelical Christians who examine your website should know your conclusions are not based upon bias against the beliefs of those who made this production. Your conclusions are accurate.
The effects of this presentation, even if it was not the intention of those who made it, are racist and anti-immigrant.
Thanks for your hard work. And thanks for me letting me have my say.
I stopped reading as soon as I saw you used Wikipedia as a source…
I was admittedly concerned after viewing the video, but suspected it was fear mongering. I’m thankful for Tiny Frog’s debunking work. Now if he can debunk the claims of Aaron Russo in America: Freedom to Fascism I would be eternally grateful. I continually see proof for Aaron’s claims everyday in the mainstream media as well as online. If it is true, it wouldn’t matter who out-reproduces who. The powers that are moving the world into a single global government (Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, and Council of Foreign Affairs)wouldn’t much care about their minions’ cultural backgrounds nor their religious beliefs.
[…] and numerous other mistakes and inconsistencies are exposed and thoroughly refuted in an excellent post on the Tiny Frog blog. If anyone sends you a link to the “Muslim demographics” video, send them back a link […]
A couple of things…
1. you did a lot of work on the subject! Good effort! I am surprised though that you would do this amount of work and use Wikipedia for a source… you kind of lost me on that one.
2. No doubt there are some differences in the numbers proposed on the Video, however the national birth rates in the majority of western Europe and North Anerica have declined a great deal over the last 100 years and if this trend does continue, which in all likely hood it will, There will be no way of reversing the trends.
From a historical stand point we need to remember that it was the Europeans who ‘conquered’ the Americas only some 200 years ago or so…. The fact is, some societies no longer exist as they once were and are but a shadow of their former selves. In all likelihood, these societies will never recover or even continue to exist over time.
It can happen to us. For us to think our societiy will not be affected or that we are invincible would not be wise.
[…] demographics https://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/ – tears into all of the statistics in a highly detailed […]
[…] Refutation to the "Muslim Demographics" Video https://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/0…-demographics/ […]
One thing to keep in perspective is that Europe has several cultures and languages. While there is a fear of homogeneity across the globe, be it American fast food, or in this case, Muslims, I just don’t see it happening. Europe has interacted with Muslims and each of its neighbors for centuries. Yet, individual cultures persist. Yes, culture evolves and what we call French today is unlikely to be what we call French in 100 years, but an infiltration of homogeneity, as much as marketers, religions, and other cultures try, and sci-fi novels predict, I just don’t see it happening.
I also don’t know what is up with the Wiki bashing. Like I said in a comment before, it may not be the BEST source for information, but in many cases it is an adequate source because it is open to correction and does provide sources for its data. It is certainly more credible than a dramatized YouTube opinion! Let’s apply common sense, too. If Muslims had a 8.1 birthrate, what would their populations be? They would be extraordinary!
http://www.christianzionism.org/Article/Wagner03.asp
Often overlooked in the descent into war in the Holy Land is a community whose presence may not survive the next 25-30 years in Israel and Palestine: the dwindling Palestinian Christian community. Many Palestinian scholars believe that Palestinian Christians could disappear in the Holy Land within a generation if the present war and emigration patterns among Christians continue. It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction.
Historian Sami Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalem’s Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawi’s study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme1.html
The decline in Bethlehem
Population estimates, made by Ibrahim Kandelaft, PA Chairman Yasir Arafat’s adviser on Christians and church affairs, and seen in the graph below, show a considerable decline in the number of Christians in the West Bank — from 35,000 in 1997 to 25,000 in 2002, a drop of 29 percent. In the Gaza Strip, the number diminished from 2,500 to 2,000, or 20 percent, during the same period.
Dr. Bernard Sabella of Bethlehem University estimates that approximately 600 Christians per year have left since the beginning of the current violence versus 300-400 per year in earlier periods. The Israeli civil administration in the territories estimates the number of Christians who have left since September 2000 at approximately 10,000.
The once-prosperous Christian community is more urbanized and better educated, and has a higher rate of white-collar professionals, smaller households and lower birthrates than does its Muslim counterparts. The Christians in the West Bank are concentrated in two enclaves near Jerusalem: the Ramallah district with approximately 16,000 Christians and the Bethlehem district, including the small towns of Beit Jala and Beit Sahur, with about 9,000 Christians. In both areas, the Christians lost their majorities as early as the 1950s and 1960s when the West Bank was under Jordanian rule, mainly due to the settlement of mostly Muslim refugees as well as continuous Christians emigration and the Christians’ birthrate than the Muslims’.
Point of all this is that the religious culture has change significantly due to persecution expulsion and birthrate
All this is very interesting (and gratifying if correct), but at no point I could discern from a quick scan of the article were statistics ever given of of growth of muslim populations in host countries compared with the host populations themselves. With better health facilities and government handouts for having children, it is not impossible to conceive (no pun intended) that an immigrant population disposed to a high birthrate might be benefitting from these advantages. Probably governments do not release this information in the interests of political correctness, but until those figures are available many people’s minds will not be put at rest. No one wants to feel they are being swamped, and unless it can be adequately demonstrated that they are not the fearmongers will have a field day.
I agree that the video is over the top. Frankly, an easy target that avoids the real substance at the heart of the matter: demographic suicide.
Whether the video itself is biased and overly dramatic — and it is — it’s interesting that Tiny Frog evidently chose to ignore secular sources that make the same point — and they’re not even “right-wing Christians” (though I suppose from Tiny Frog’s standpoint, any source to the right of Tiny Frog is “right wing”):
A writer who bemoans the rise of fundamentalism everywhere – http://www.amazon.com/Empty-Cradle-Birthrates-Threaten-Prosperity/dp/0465050506
“Dying Russia” – http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120907994764042837.html
This one is written by a gay American expat – http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0767920058/ref=pd_sim_b_8
So I’m glad Tiny Frog made you all “feel better” with a fairly surface critique, but stop feeling better. In fact, stop feeling and start thinking.
Those who deny the reality in front of their noses are doomed to repeat history.
Whether it’s a “culture” we’re talking about or a civilization, they do rise and fall based on the choices people make and the worldviews we embrace or discard.
Europe is Jonestown in slow motion.
For a blog that seems to represent itself as embracing hard-eyed realism, I see an awful lot of pie-in-the-sky naivete about the bad old world out there in the comments section and a lot of wishful thinking.
We are all not going to get along, no matter how many times you may wish it to be so.
There are cultural worldviews which do in fact seek to dominate, marginalize and obliterate (insert snarky reply about Western capitalism and white males here, I suppose).
One of those worldviews just now happens to have produced a surplus of angry young men willing to don suicide vests, pilot commercial jetliners into landmark office towers, saw off heads with rusty knives, serve up dead children as a meal to their parents … in fact, whatever atrocity they’re asked to commit in the name of a bloodthirsty desert deity.
Get that through your thick skulls.
They also kill the people who are not muslim when they can. Also they intimidate people to change. The tactic worked for the Catholics 1300 years. The radical sheites are doing it in there nation. It worked for Hitler for a little while.
Perhaps all the “indigenous” Europeans should go and live in those Muslim countries with the fertility rates below 2. Ours will shoot up then we’ll outnumber them soon lol 🙂
“Europe has interacted with Muslims and each of its neighbors for centuries.”
Interacted?? How misleading of you. Ever thought of writing for the BBC? Muslims tried to conquer Europe and were twice repelled. Now they are inside the gates, same violent muslim culture, modern civilised Europeans wondering wtf went wrong??
Muslims attacked and conquered part of Europe such as the Andalusian region and parts of Eastern Europe.
Europe conquered Islamic parts of the world including India (Muslim rules, Hindu majority; “No Dogs or Indians Allowed” signs rampant), Middle East, and North Africa.
Europeans conquered, colonized, and drove native races to penury and near extinction in North America, South America, and Australia.
Ask Christian African Americans what they think about European colonialism.
Ask Christian Africans what they think about European colonialism. (President Obama’s grandfather was tortured by the British).
Ask Catholic Filipinos what they think about European colonialism. (Their national hero Jose Rizal was executed by the Spanish for his native nationalist writing!).
However, my conclusion is that these atrocities are not a reflection of European/white Christians but a sad reflection of man’s ability to be cruel regardless of race, religion, color.
Sorry, don’t recognize the people you refer to as Christian African American…..you must have inserted an extra word here. Perhaps you meant Christian Africans or Christian Americans? There is no such thing as an African American, (other in the mind of those that are not true Americans), there are only Americans, so I know you must have erred.
Maybe then, Siddique, we should all call it a truce, hey? Why don’t you pass the word along? The Muslims can keep their Sharia Law in their own country and that would solve most of the problems.
If we are to live in a civilized world, don’t you think that perhaps the Muslims had better get a clue? It isn’t going to happen unless they stop their terrorism. If Muslims wish to live in other countries they need to adopt those countries laws, period.
[…] in the Netherlands are Muslim and that in only 15 years half the population will be Muslim. As Tiny Frog points out, there are approximately 1 million Muslims in the Netherlands, a nation of 16.6 million […]
Awesome takedown! (Clapping)
Loved the work. Give yourself a free set of steak knives!
Good Job!
Even if those statistics were some what true…why the fear? when you think of it, Islam will solve all the problems that we have in the west! practicing Muslims don’t drink or do drugs, for this to be eliminated in our society half our problems would be gone! they have good family structures…no teenage pregnancies which eventually results in kids without a mum and dad unit, that usually leads to single mums without rights, no oldies in rest homes living witjout their families until they die, and no economic recessions! interest is forbidden in Islam…accurate solutions to today’s problems of poverty, depression, and other injustices that are all around…that’ what I know about Muslims from reading Islam from unbiased resources, and from good Muslim friends I have, I really got all my questions answered! and I will very shortly add another number to this increasing Muslim world numbers…It is so sad to see people fearing what is good for their humanity in this world and in the hereafter! wake up people, it is about time you start questioning if what you have is working for you and the world you live in! search for the truth!
If Islam is so great, why is every Muslim country a disaster, more or less. The only ones that have half their act only do because they are swimming in oil money. A former work acquaintance of mine worked in Saudi Arabia and said that the Arabs were not good workers. Haven’t you ever heard of ‘honor killing’? I suggest you look it up on the web. You are only looking at the positives. The West is a mess because it has abandoned Christian principles and is in a moral free-fall. But I don’t think the answer is Islam, which will take away your right to free speech. Don’t believe me? Then try critically analyzing Islam in public in a muslim Country and see how long you live? It’ s only in a Christian-based (in our early days) nation that we have the freedoms we enjoy.
Careful about the “Christian-based” thing. Islam claims to share the same foundation as Christianity.
Also, careful about making generalizations. “Arabs are not good workers”? You make two generalizations here: 1)All Muslims are Arab (in view of the context), and 2)All Arabs are bad workers. Both of which are false.
Sarah,
Have you ever been outside of the USA?
Apparently not!
I work and travel all around the Middle East and part of what you say its true; what you are forgetting is that all you have to sacrifies for the exchange of the priviledges you speak of is “YOUR FREEDOM”
You should walk around the Morocan market were beggers are abundants and thieves are the usual and worst than in New York; No they won’t rob you at gun point but none the less they do.
Attempt to walk on a street in Saudi Arabia without your head cover and veil, be prepare to be castigated by the Islamic Police and beaten in public for being a woman.
Child, you have a lot to learn; maybe one day you can ask your Muslin friends to give you a tour of their country, but don’t forget your Burka!
Salaamaliukum!
Good work Tiny,
Fear based phobias never lead to accurate results. However, you don’t need to look far to see where changing Muslim demographics and Islamic fundamentalism have undermined stability. So far the people on this thread seem to be overlooking the Muslim demographic trends in Russia. “Chechnya has been at war for most of the last 10 years. Low-level violence is continuing, and the republic remains the main source of instability in the volatile Caucasus region.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3293441.stm And most Chechens are Sunni Muslim.
“Experts say the country is undergoing a startling change and that if current trends continue, more than half of Russia’s population will be Muslim by midcentury. ‘Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union,’ said Paul Goble, an expert on Islam in Russia and a research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.'”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/19/MNGJGMFUVG1.DTL
“Fertility and birthrates are much higher among Muslim ethnic groups than among ethnic Slavs. In 2006, predominantly Muslim regions had the highest population growth rates: 1.79 percent in Chechnya, 1.16 percent in Ingushetia, and 0.65 percent in Dagestan. The national average was -0.37 percent.
Proponents of radical Islam have their own expansionist and often violent agendas. Radicalism spreads in many regions because of local grievances–including Stalinist persecution and ethnic cleansing, poverty, and corruption–and radicalizing foreign Islamic influences… Although the new practices appear stricter and more radical, they continue to gain in popularity.”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/RussiaandEurasia/bg2084.cfm#_ftn19
So my point is that while this particular video was blatantly wrong on several key facts, changing Muslim demographics and their tendencies towards radicalization are something worth paying attention to if for no other reason than curiosity. Look how quickly the Native Americans where wiped out.
Tiny Frog did a lot of work on this, but I’m not seeing where he is differentiating between the birth rates of the whole countries compared to those of the native populations. The basic point of the video is that Muslims Immigrants are propagating much faster than the nationals.
The figures that Tiny Frog quotes as “Acutal Figures” would include those of Muslim births within the countries. He also says that recent evidence shows that birth rates are rising in these countries. How is that to say that it is not brought about by the Muslim high rates of birth? I will agree that there are many generalizations and a number of exaggerations in this video, but when you look at the reality of it there is a massive increase in the numbers of Muslims in these countries that can’t be ignored. Democracies must reflect the will of the people, and when there are more Muslims than others in a country that country will become Muslim.
To me it is very scary to look at the condition of countries where Islam has ruled for a number of centuries. It is far too easy for them to justify any kind of hatred and bloodshead because their Quran is to generalized as to who is an Infidel. Just look at the battles they have with each other! If the world becomes Islamic, as dear Sarah who tells us to not fear the onset of Islam, what possibly will prevent the ongoing bloodshed and animosity that has continually characterized Islam? I’m not talking about the Jihad against Christianity and the West, but about wars and strive between Muslims. As I see it, it is a religion birthed in warfare that cannot survive without it. There always has to be an enemy and when there is not an obvious one the leaders will find a convienent one. At least that is what 500 + years of Islamic history serves to teach. Only as Islam has confronted the West and has tried to hide it’s ugly face have we seen a peaceful side of it, but that will surely be replaced by the inhumane cruelty that characterized Muhammed’s government once he had taken control of Mecca.
I wont say that the information in the video is incorrect no more then your information claiming its false is correct or incorrect.
For me, I just think its funny how easy it is for people to believe that the information they read is correct. Just because both the video and the article here throw numbers and statistics at us we are sure it must be true (cant dispute numbers and statistics).
I’m sure that when people first seen the video they all believed this info was correct. What changed…just because Tinyfrog gives us what sounds like undisputable numbers and facts.
I myself enjoy the reading on both parts but dont plan on researching what either have given for us to believe.
So I guess what I’m trying to say is, dont be so quick to believe what you read and not until you do the research yourself will you know for sure how true it is.
So, while you recommend a Judeo-Christian skepticism for the rest of us, Bushido, you’re planning to stay ignorant? Smart.
Any idea who is responsible for the clip? I’ve been trying to pin down the source but it’s elusive.
I’ve been on the same search and think that it may be from Mark Steyn, author and self proclaimed Islamaphobe and sensationalist contributor to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. I called the video an incendiary piece of propaganda put out by a “Christian” to incite hate toward a religious group of people. And I now see it being posted on a Christian website as reason to evangelise.
Note: if your comment doesn’t show up right away, it means it set-off my spam filters. One way to set-off the spam filters is by posting too many links in a comment. I’ll approve any and all comments as long as they aren’t spam.
Good work.
Also, the fact that someone has muslim parents does not meen that they will grow up to become muslim in faith or culture.
I knew they were lying or at the very least exaggerating when they claimed 2 million Muslims in Holland. I knew the correct number was 1 million.
When they claimed there was 50 million Muslims in Europe already, I knew the correct figure was about 20 million.
Hence, from the word go I knew that the people making the video were the same type that seek to spread malicious lies about Mexican-Americans–like me.
Its worth noting that while Mexico’s total fertility rate is 2.4 while the USA “Hispanic” birth rate is about 2.3. (The USA “Hispanic” birth rate is not broken down by nationalities, though Mexicans are 2/3 of USA “Hispanics”).
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/country/mxportal.html
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/summaries.html (Click on country of interest)
An average of 2.3 births per USA “Hispanic” female.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081908dnnatbirthrate.39dcfdf.html
Bottom line; The makers of the video in question are using lies to stir up fear about Muslim immigrants in Europe. They remind me people who spread lies like these;
“Illegals kill 25 Americans every single day”
U.S. Rep. Steve King (R-IA) in claimed in May 2006, in at least two speeches. and a press release that illegal immigrants murder 12 Americans each day and kill 13 each day as a result of drunken driving accidents, for a total of 25 deaths per
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/ia05_king/col_20060505_bite.html
Rep. Steve King (R-IA) misleadingly “extrapolated” figures from an April 2005 Government Accountability Office (GAO) study to formulate the questionable statistic regarding the number of deaths caused by illegal immigrants, the GAO report itself makes no such claim. The study shows that “noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally” comprise approximately 27 percent of the United States federal prison population. More than half of them there on immigration related charges only/
Click to access d05337r.pdf
http://blogs.chron.com/bluebayou/2006/11/fanning_the_immigration_flames.html
http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200609270005
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=415
“30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens”
A 2005 report by the nonpartisan General Accounting Office says that immigrants — both documented and undocumented — constitute 27% of federal prisoners, many there on immigration related charges only. But fewer than 13% of incarcerated people in America are in federal prisons, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. When both federal and state prisoners are counted, about 6% are non-citizens; that is actually less than expected, because documented and undocumented immigrants make up roughly 8% of adults residing in the U.S.
Click to access d05337r.pdf
Click to access pim07.pdf
Click to access d05646r.pdf
“240,000 illegal alien sex offenders”
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/insideice/articles/InsideICE_071905_Web1.htm
http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200702160002
http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals
http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html
USA immigrants (legal and otherwise) are increasing crime they claim. Yet, as US immigration has reached all time highs – crime has reached levels not seen since the 1960s – a decade of extremely low US immigration.
Click to access 2006_NYT_OpenDoors.pdf
The graph above cuts off at 2006, so here is the FBI data for US murders in 2007 and 2008;
FBI Data on US Murders 2007;
Total -2.7
Northeast -8.6
Midwest -3.8
South +2.9
West -6.7
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table2.htm
FBI Data on US Murders 2008;
Total -4.4
Northeast -1.2
Midwest -5.2
South -5.2
West -4.2
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2008prelim/table_2.html
“Illegals are a drain”
Comptroller for the State of Texas;
“The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services
they received.”
Click to access undocumented.pdf
“Illegal Aliens are CRIMINALS”
“While an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States in and of itself is not a crime, unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country.”
http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-and-Opinions/opinions/ctapp/2007/20070817/96613.htm
Former US Attorney for the southern district of New York, Rudy Giuliani;
“Glenn, being an illegal immigrant, the 400,000 were not prosecuted for crimes by the federal government, nor could they be. I was U.S. attorney in the southern district of New York. So believe me, I know this. In fact, when you throw an immigrant out of the country, it’s not a criminal proceeding. It’s a civil proceeding.”
U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie Serving the District of New Jersey;
“Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime,” Christie told more than 60 residents and town officials. “The whole phrase of ‘illegal immigrant’ connotes that the person, by just being here, is committing a crime.”
Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it’s not a criminal act, Christie said.
“Don’t let people make you believe that that’s a crime that the U.S. Attorney’s Office should be doing something about,” he added of entering the country illegally. “It is not.”
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/immigrants_and_their_advocates.html
Internet MYTH debunked by (and sourced) to LA Times
1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal.
5. Nearly 35% of all inm ates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish. There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County.
http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/04/may_day_mythbus.html
http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/02/some_memes_neve.html
I think the USA is a different matter altogether given that Europeans (including the Spanish) came here ILLEGALLY themselves. Who invited THEM?
For ALL of you that hate us so passionately, I leave you with some facts to choke on;
Mexico ethnic groups; Ethnic groups: Indian-Spanish (mestizo) 60%, Indian 30%, Caucasian 9%, other 1%.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35749.htm
$25 billion Mexico receives in US remittances represents 0.016% of US National Income
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/07/30/us-slowdown-hits-mexico-as-remittances-drop/
Click to access GDP.pdf
Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
Mexico = USA #2 Customer
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html#exports
“Hispanics”, 2/3 of Mexican ethnicity, are now 20% of ALL school age children in the USA.
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=96
“Hispanics” are now 25% of ALL births in the USA (2/3 of Mexican ethnicity)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/30/AR2008043003397.html
Surge in U.S. “Hispanic” Population Driven by Births, Not Immigration.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120959501599257567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
With an average of 2.3 births per USA “Hispanic” female.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081908dnnatbirthrate.39dcfdf.html
Of U.S. Children Under 5, Nearly Half Are Minorities
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/09/AR2006050901841.html
It’s not our fault that more whites die each day than are born. How can it be given that this is a global phenomenon? Maybe you haters should work on raising the white birth rate instead of hating on us?
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080303/joyce
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/23784
“This is a call to action”….! ends the video….
What kind of action is the video talking about? Perhaps a second holocaust? Perhaps wiping out the Muslims this time, just like the Jews 60 years ago?
I am disgusted with this racist junk…. It is exactly this type of nonsense that makes this world so racist and intolerant… Who ever did this video should be locked up in a mental asylum….
[…] […]
Thank you Nevin for your comment, it is reliefing to see there is still good people around…
Victor Gamma: I agree with you, all Muslim countries are doing bad …they are being ruled by ‘Muslim’ governments that have been placed and supported by our governments …those rulers follow their own desirable ways to stay in power…but above all, I believe they are doing bad because the majority of them are not following their correct teachings and like to do things the cultural way…and besides, would you like me to judge Christianity based on what the ‘Christian’ countries doing to this world?? we won’t even go there…
dear Jimbo63; you won’t like hearing this but last year I went to Saudia Arabia believe it or not (which is worse than Morocco in the aspects you are talking about)…anyway, the problem of many people who share similar views to you is that they do not distinguish between the culture, what media tells us, and our racist implemented ideolgies and what Islam is really about… In my search for truth I put aside all what the so called “Muslim” conutries do – because Muslims that understand their religion believe there isn’t even one Islamic country that rules with the teachings of Islam. I read the Quran and other essential Islamic books and you will NEVER find that it is Ok to have no speech rights, beat women, honor killigs, or kill innocent people, or do the other nasty things that are always portrayed in our media…
Post sept. 11, The National geographic estimated that around 70,000 Americans converted to Islam in the first year after the attacks only…it got people interested in this whole ‘Islam’ thing and those people got to ‘read’, instead of being fed information…Islam is against such act of terrorism.
Michael Hart in his book the 100, put Muhammad as the number one person of most influential people in the history of mankind…and reading his biography from Muslim authentic sources, I understand why.
Sarah, I am trouble for your heart is looking in as are your eyes and mind, I hope your ears are open because what you are saying is; because of your religion you are willing to subject yourself to this type of treatment, although, as you said it is wrong! these leaders are running these countries as a farce? Isn’t it time that real Muslin to stand for the REAL teachings of Mohamed or is it just another excuse to say “as long as I am not doing it it’s ok with me” Remember Historic Nazy Germany; people ignore the truth until it was too late; look around; the same thing may be said for Islam.
[…] demografia islamică în Europa. (Ateii s-au interesat ceva mai adânc şi cum le stă în obicei au demitizat multe din pretenţiile […]
I rencently saw this video on a presentation about our changing culture. It was not anti muslim but warned about the changes to our culture from the rising muslim populations. When mentioning low birth rates it did not implicate that a low birth rate could be be reveresed but that the culture changes casued by a general low birth rate in the population accompanied by a growth rate for themuslim population
Read “America Alone” by Mark Schwartz. He is definitely not a “Christian-Right” author. Same conclusions….better referrences.
Statistics can be manipulated and surely they are!
Right-wing christians or left-wing of any kind, both, do it.
The Economist Pocket World in Figures gives an accurate idea of the general situation. Between 1991 and 2008 there was significant changes in terms of fertility.
The most interesting case that I know is France. The May Revolution of 1968 was studied by Economie et Humanisme few years latter as the result of Family aid to augment the fertility.
The real problem exists inside our culture or more exactly in the changes introduced by our materialistic deviation promoted by the consumption and reinforced by Marketing.
My own country after a short boom in 1974-6 entered in a decline and went from a youg nation to one of oldest european nations in 35 years.
History is to strong and the present requires reflexion. Europe needs immigrants but they surely prefer to find work in their own poor countries but rich countries never consented this since the pre-industrial revolution.
Fears or good wills are not good advisers as they can convey to not controlable situations that generate useless violence.
[…] shared an article that provides and alternate perspective to the original video. Like I mentioned, the intentions behind creating this video seem suspect. […]
Hey,
I can tell you 1 thing. Here in Czech Republic we have lot of gipsie ghetos in our cities. They live their lives they do not want to integrate into our society. They do not work at all. Their fertility rate is very very high (something around 5 and more children per family). As they do not work they use up our social security benefits for children but do not bring anything back !!
I do not say that all gispies are the same but the most are.
If those muslims were smart enough they would make the same gispsie’s strategy to work for them.
As for the facts … yes video uses a bit of non precise numbers but I do not agree with anybody saying that video is xenophobic piece of stuff.
It does not tell anyone to get a weapon and shoot your muslim friends !
Second … your article is misleading too. You can not make any final verdict based on country origin fertility rates ! It does not make any sense.
And now tell me who is wrong ?
Sorry for my english … I know it’s not perfect.
“A call to action?”
I am also perplexed by this at the end of the video…but not disgusted by it, more so amused.
To jump to the conclusion that the video is calling for a second holocaust is just as extremist an idea as the videos view point of Muslims taking over our global population.
It could be anything, because it is never pointed out. I, for one, love to theorize that the video is asking for Christians to stop using birth control and to start having lots and lots of baby making sex. But there are lots of ways that the ending can be interpreted, because they never say what they mean it can imply everything.
Other possible theories on the call to action;
Convert every Muslim you meet to any other religion or belief.
Marry a Muslim so that the race and religion may become thinned by the other races and religion mixed into the prospective children of that marriage.
Run for Government with a platform that only allows immigration rights to non Muslim persons.
….man oh man I could go on and on all day, but right now I am laughing so hard that I have to pee.
Any other ideas about what the possible “call to action” could entail? It could literally be anything! Be as crazy and imaginative as you want! It’s not the videos job to tell you, it’s your job to tell the world how your brain automatically problem solves.
Did you think holocaust as the first option? You may be in need for a little therapy my friend.
I am what you called a Christian Right-wing American. I watched the video and then found your critique. At least you were fair in identifying the points the video got correct or close to correct. While, I agree, the numbers are exaggerated, which isn’t right, it still is true that Muslims are reproducing at a higher rate than the general public and certainly in most places more than Christians. In those countires where you correct the birth rates are your numbers the entire country (including Muslims)? and maybe the video’s numbers are for non-Muslims in those countries therefore lower than yours, although they don’t say that. One thing to remember whether this video was intended to be fear mongering or not, the teaching of Islam is to convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world to honor Allah. That includes non-Chritsians and atheists as well as Jews and Christians. NO ONE is beyond their reach.
“the teaching of Islam is to convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world to honor Allah. That includes non-Chritsians and atheists as well as Jews and Christians. NO ONE is beyond their reach.”
Show me where the Quran says to “convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world”.
Anon,
Off the top of my head I’d say the Qur’an admonishes Muslims convert, subjugate or kill the rest of the world in:
Surah 9 (Ultimatum) :
And in Surah – 48 (The Victory):
As you can see, the Qur’an does state what you seem to doubt. 😉
Then explain to me these verses:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error (02 : 256).
To you be your way and to be mine (109 : 06).
Say, “The Truth is from your Lord.” Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject (it) (18 : 29).
Say to those who do not believe: “Do whatever ye can: we shall do our part” (11 : 121).
He that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set a custodian over them (39 : 41).
If then they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey the message (42 : 48).
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching ; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious (16 : 125).
Is there a contradiction, or is there some important historical context that needs to be taken into consideration?
PS. Sorry for the late reply. I hadn’t realized someone had responded.
You say
“The EU population is 491 million”
But Europe’s population is well above 700 million.. the countries with high muslimrate’s aren’t a member of the EU jet..
Europe isn’t the same as the European Union.. FI Zwitserland, Norway aren’t members.. And many east europe coutries also..
Yes. And the Muslim population of Switzerland, according to the CIA Factbook would be 235,000 of that 700 million. As for Norway, it would be even less: 83,000 – which would represent 0.012% of that ‘expanded’ European total.
In US terms (population 304 million), Norway’s Muslims (according to the CIA Factbook) would fit into three and a half communities the size of Wasilla, Alaska (or one tenth-part of Anchorage). Or quite a few Crawford TX. Hardly swamping.
But methinks, our American friends are looking in the wrong direction for the ‘threat’ to their civilisation. While 10 million of you are downloading and being bamboozled by some tendentious video on YouTube, the Chinese are buying up your entire country in a fire-sale.
Hey, maybe it was them who made the video after all and not the right-wing wing-nut Christians; to distract you. Smart move if it was.
Anon,
the context is : the peaceful verses “came” when muhammad hadn’t have an army, in little numbers, and basicly relies on the mercy of other parties and the influence of his uncle
while the war verses came after he continually robbed wealthy merchants, attack and terrorized rival tribes, established an army, send letters to neghbouring kingdoms
“politely” asking them to embrace islam, while preparing tens of thousands of barbaric idiots on the borders ready to charge if they refuse
didn’t you know that?
Here’s the problem. First, there are far more violent verses in the Qu’ran than peaceful ones. That is a fact. Second, radical Muslims tend to ignore the peaceful verses and focus on the violent ones – and many “moderate” Muslims are perfectly willing to look the other way as the radicals do their dirty work for them. Do not play dumb and pretend this isn’t the case.
And another good post. Unfortunately I think it isn’t just the “moderate” Muslims that are looking the other way, there are a lot of non-Muslims doing so.
One of the things I miss in these discussions is that no one identifies the underlying premise that all children of muslims will be muslims too. Muslims are generally treated in these discussions like a different species who are not able to assimilate or change their belief system.
Let me give an example of what I mean. In the early 20th century Catholics had many more children than the other groups in Dutch society. In those year, protestant, socialist and liberal Dutch were terribly frightened of the Catholic demographic bomb and feared that in a few decades there would be no liberal Netherlands anymore, but that we would become an Italy at the Amstel.
A few decades later, the children of these 10+ families not only started having as many or few children as other groups in society, but also stopped considering themselves primarily as Roman Catholics. Many became non religious, and many only Catholic in name and went to church only at Christmas.
My point being simply that belonging to an institutionalized superstition is not hereditary and that we cannot make that many assumptions about the religion of future children of muslims.
All children of Muslim are Muslim – this is a fact. The penalty for leaving Islam (apostasy) is you must be killed by any Muslim that sees you. This tends to concentrate the mind. Almost no one leaves Islam because of that. Another fact – Muslims in Europe in the 2nd and 3rd generation are becoming more attached to their “faith” – something which is unusual with immigrants, who tend to become more like the local population.
Is it wrong to want to preserve a culture? Europeans are not producing babies? The politicians say we need immigrants to hold our economic status. So what about the economic status? Our way of life, our race is in jeopardy. We have overcome shortfalls before. Why should we become a minority in our own homeland? Wake up!!
Eric, no it is NOT wrong to want to preserve a culture. Sadly though, if that culture is a culture of primarily White people, a lot of people will decry such efforts at preservation.
wake up you children of God fearing less it is too late. accelelate family rate to combat the out growth of the alarming growth of the opposite, that’s all
Thank you for posting this, so many people watch that video and start their little rants and quote that video. It’s ridiculous and they believe it to be true 100%, I’m glad there’s sites & people out there to disprove that stupid video.
WHY ARE U SO SCARED???????
[…] in the Netherlands would need to have 26 children to makeup 50% of the births in the country” (Muslim Demographics). And according to The Netherlands Interdisciplinary Demographic Institute (NIDI), “Based on […]
Great thoughts! Truth=facts+individual’s perceptions. A then-first-grade student wrote this rap 15 years ago:
When you hear a story
You may be hearing lies
Try to keep an open mind
And listen to both sides
Both sides … uh huh. Both sides … uh huh.
Please listen to both sides.
Love this rap. Love your post!
Thanks!
[…] in the Netherlands would need to have 26 children to makeup 50% of the births in the country” (Muslim Demographics). And according to The Netherlands Interdisciplinary Demographic Institute (NIDI), “Based on […]
[…] gasit o replica Muslim Demographics Tiny Frog __________________ la 25nl nu se reprezinta nimic, la 25nl se "are" – […]
a call to action – it means spread the gospel of christ. bit different to the islamic teaching of destroy all infidels.
OMG! wtf?
u guyz r just scared that we muslims WILL overpopulate u
thatz y ur twisting the words and making them into whatever YOU think sounds good
SCARDEY CATS….
no more 2 say…
PEACE OUT – HIBA
well, personally i would hate to live in a muslim state. look around the world at the way muslims live in most of these countries. i think most brits would say it’s a bit of a backward step if we ended up like this lol! does that make me a scaredy cat? nah, just someone with common sense.
After reading over Tiny Frog’s analysis of this subject three times, I come to the conclusion that most of the people that have replied also have their blinders on…….pay attention to the context of what he/she says. The increase in each countries fertility rate is so minimal that it might as well be excluded in his presentation.
He makes claims based on “I think” and “I have a hard time believing”, but no data to back up what he thinks or can’t believe. Then at various points he says the video makes claims without proof of data. Hmmm.
Is there really that much of a difference between the statements “is well on the way” and “it will be a Muslim state by 2050” that you need to use it as an example to discredit this video? That’s stretching it.
Tiny Frog is trying to compare the birth rates of immigrants in their countries of origin to their birthrates in their adopted countries with no statistics from the latter for comparison.
Just a few things of the things I picked up on. But if you want to be sheeple and follow this person blindly, hey that is your right!
[…] links in regards to this: https://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/ (more debunking/charts/stats/sources) […]
Is there any particular reason that you posted a link that is a link to the link we are already at? Do you think that if it is read again it will change the fact that tiny frog is not also distorting facts?
The “Muslim Demographics” video may be somewhat exaggerated, but tiny frog’s argument does not hold water when you REALLY read and grasp what he is saying.
Oh, so many sheeple, so little time……….
The only way to solve this problem is to convince the Chinese that moslems taste a bit like chicken .
Interesting remedy, but a bit barbaric. How about we just put some form of birth control in their water source? It wouldn’t hurt to add some valium to chill them out too.
The only way to solve the problem is to convince the Chinese that Jews taste a bit like chicken…?
Airport security could be made easier and a lot more fun if everyone were offered a glass of whiskey and a bacon roll before boarding . Anyone refusing to partake would have to walk.
vive la difference !
LOL!!
Feeding the Muslims to the Chinese…cannibalism…tainting their water supply….violating their religious sensitivities…..
I’d be more worried about people like Christine and M.Jackson breeding and multiplying.
i wouldn’t. any religion that openly says to “destroy all infidels” needs careful monitoring lol!
Whoops. Sorry. Forgot to say: LOL!!
Any chance of having a go at breeding christine ?
now there’s an offer christine could probably refuse.
First of all, Sarah, what ethnicity are you? Obviously not one with a sense of humor, dark or otherwise. Hey, I’m Danish – go for it, make fun of Danes, won’t bother me a bit……maybe you can start with the fact that the majority of Danes are the most passive peoples around.
Second, Sarah, read jonolan’s post on July 17, 2009 at 17:43 PM, and if that DOES NOT scare you, then you must be even more passive than the Dane’s, or are you a Dane??
Third, violating their religious sensitivities??? Religious sensitivities, REALLY??? That must be sarcasm, right? They preach killing, Sarah, do your research.
Fourth, dear, dear Sarah, not tainting their water supply as in with a poison. Just to prevent this violent segment of society from breeding and to settle them down somewhat.
M.Jackson: it might produce some interesting children. Run Sarah, Run!
[…] response to this video is meant to function in tandem with Tiny Frog’s examination of the statistics and Snope’s review of the techniques used in the video to elicit a specific response from the […]
Snopes is NOT a reliable source, they follow the same rules as Tiny Frog……..slight of hand, they word things so as to make you misunderstand the true meaning/content. I have debunked several of snopes true/false claims on articles.
Do your own research. Don’t leave it up to these sites that just throw up smoke screens to distort facts, etc.
Thank you for the time you took to produce this piece. It is nice to hear the truth once-in-a-while. Best regards, Abdul Majeed.
Obviously someone has not read any of the comments made regarding this piece. This article is not total truth, ze Tiny Frog has used slight of hand in many of his assumptions.
I agree. Truth is good.
Who’s truth?
IT SEEMS YOU HAVE DONE GOOD HARD WORK ON
fertility rate and Muslim demographics .
You must be referring to the people/person that produced the video? Or would you be referring to tiny frog?
They both have flawed facts………so, again, whose truth do we believe? Or do we believe part of each? Wouldn’t that make the most sense?
[…] atheist blogger Tiny Frog stated that it didn’t seem to make sense that most of the Muslim immigrants in France could be so […]
Thank you Tiny Frog. First time I have found you website and I am grateful. I live in Indonesia. I have been blogging on the Telegraph and other places recently following the media attention given to these demographics. The hype and fear filled rubbish that has been pouring out is pitiful. Again thanks and I am adding you to my blog roll on the site.
(Telegraph blogging in the name of John Pitcher typical sample on George Pitcher’s blog:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/georgepitcher/100006696/100006696/)
Hey,
I have spent a real long time investigating lot of different sources for better imigration numbers.
Youtube video is not right but you are not correct too.
In serious biggest Czech newspaper there was a long article about growing muslim imigration. All numbers were proved numbers (no wikipedia and others).
It’s not very easy to get accurate numbers as nobody counts muslims as it would feel a bit “xenophobic”.
But take these facts:
Actually 6 most favourite names in Brusel are:
Mohamed, Adam, Rádžan, Ajúb, Mehdí, Amín a Hamza !!
One of the most favourite name in whole Britain is Mohamed !
I would never name my son Mohamed or do you ? Only muslim people will use these names for their children.
According to an american population institute in 2050 islam will count 20% of whole european population.
But do not feel too optimistic – muslim population numbers for big cities:
Rotterdame – 25 %
Marseille – 25 %
Malmo – 20 %
Brusel – 15 %
Birmigham, London, Paris – 10 %
Do you know what ? .. big cities always rule the other smaller cities.
Do you still think that muslim imigration is not a problem ?
The question is not if but when and how muslim will rule Europe !
I would not care it but can we expect them to live according to our european habits ? – I’m afraid not.
Actually 6 most favourite names in Brusel are:
Mohamed, Adam, Rádžan, Ajúb, Mehdí, Amín a Hamza !!
One of the most favourite name in whole Britain is Mohamed !
One of the problems with the “most common name” data is that there are multiple factors involved. One of the factors is ‘how common is the most common european name’ versus ‘how common is the most common muslim name’. I’ve seen data that the europeans are giving their children more uncommon names. In other words, (to makeup an example) in the 1950s, the most popular British name was “Harry” and 10% of all British boys were names Harry. In the 21st century, the most common British name is “Jack” but only 2% of all boys are named Jack.
You can take a look here (http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager) at the popularity of various American names through the last 120 years. There were times when some names (David, James, Michael, William) were very popular. According to the data on the website, “John” was the most popular American baby-boy name in the 1880s, and roughly 4% of all males were named “John”. In 2008, “Jacob” is the most popular American baby-boy name, but only 0.55% of all American baby-boys are named Jacob. Americans and Europeans are giving their children more unique names, naming them less uniformly than in the past. (If you want to verify my numbers, just type a name at the “>” prompt at the top of the graph and it will show you the number of children given that name per million.) I’ve seen similar data that says europeans are following a similar trend in naming (though, I can’t find the original source right now).
Muslims, on the other hand, still name their children much more uniformly. This means, for example, that if european non-muslims make up 95% of the population, and the most popular boys name (“Jack”) is given to only 1% of boys, and Muslims make up 5% of the population, but give 20% of their boys the name “Mohammed”, guess what the most popular name in the country will be? It will be Mohammed because 5% * 20% = 1% of all boys will be Mohammed, but 95% * 1% = 0.95% of all boys will be named “Jack”.
One of the most favourite name in whole Britain is Mohamed !
I’ve seen some conflicting data on this. According to this article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890354.ece) Mohammed is actually the second most common name. Here’s the breakdown from that article:
The most popular names for baby boys in 2006
1 Jack 6,928, 2 Muhammad (all spellings) 5,991, 3 Thomas 5,921, 4 Joshua 5,808, 5 Oliver 5,208, 6 Harry 5,006, 7 James 4,783, 8 William 4,327, 9 Samuel 4,320, 10 Daniel 4,303, 11 Charlie 4,178, 12 Benjamin 3,778, 13 Joseph 3,755, 14 Callum 3,517, 15 George 3,386, 16 Jake 3,353, 17 Alfie 3,194, 18 Luke 3,108, 19 Matthew 3,043, 20 Ethan 3,020
As you can see, Muslims, by more uniformly naming their boys “Mohammed” catapulted one name into the top 20 list. The other names in the list are not muslim names, and the total count for those other 19 non-muslim names are 80,936. Another telling fact is that Jack was used “6,928 times”, and there are 12 other British names that are used 50% as often (at least 3,464 times) compared to the most popular name. But, how many muslim names are used 50% as often as Mohammed? None. Ethan was used 3,020 times. If another muslim name was used 50% as often as Mohammed, it would be used 2,995 times or more – which would place it almost in the 20th spot, which would probably put it into the top 20 list, knocking out “Ethan”.
Also, the same article that says “Mohammed” is the second-most popular name says that “The leading name for girls born to Muslim parents in 2006 was Aisha, in 110th place.” Obviously, muslims name their girls much less uniformly than boys – it landed in 110th place.
According to tinyfrog it is mainly American right-wing Christians that are promoting the subject of “Muslim takeover”……well that may be true, but the dear passive Danes are none too happy with the Muslim invasion (surprise, surprise):
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/09/danesa_growing.php
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/31/denmark.immigration/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3457
http://alex-l.blogspot.com/2008/08/danish-immigration-law-under-fire.html
Oh, I don’t disagree that agnostics and atheists are also unhappy with the idea of increased Muslim influence. Modern Islam has a bad relationship with free speech, human rights, freedom of religion, etc (example: https://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2008/05/24/freedom-of-speech-vs-the-un-human-rights-council/) and there are nationalist forces at work as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if Le Pen wasn’t particularly Christian, either. But, it has been a hyped by the US right-wing, for sure. I really don’t hear much about Muslims taking over except in the right-wing media (which also happens to be largely Christian). Townhall.com, FreeRepublic.com, World Net Daily, etc – those are the places where you’ll hear the most about the ‘muslim takeover’ of europe. I’ve seen right-wingers already say that Europe is as good as fallen to Muslims.
Examples of popular right-wing Christians’ and some of their comments on Islam – either raising fears of an Islamicized Europe or Islam in general:
Cal Thomas: Invasion by Immigration
Pat Robertson: Islam is not a religion, it’s a political movement
Hal Lindsey: The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad
One right-wing website writes approvingly:
Also, there is a difference between the Danes (who are largely secular / atheist) restricting immigration and the excessive fear-mongering of the US right-wing who use ideas like the ‘takeover of Europe by Muslims’ as a means to stir-up fear and anger. I think the US right-wing has a very clear purpose in stirring up feelings of being embattled, just like the NRA uses “they’ll take your guns away” as a means to drive-up donations.
Hallo Tiny Frog,
I would very much like to link to your site and wonder if you would link to mine. We seem to have a similar assessment of Islam and its dangers or otherwise in Europe.
I live in Mulsim majority Indonesia and am the head of a family all of whom are Muslims. I have been connected to Indonesia through marriage and family for nearly thirty years. I am not a Muslim and neither am I a Muslim apologist. My interests are in researching the misunderstandings of Islam that exist and how the religion has syncretised here and in other parts of the world with pre-existing religions and traditions.
The largest Muslim populations in the world are all in democracies; which kind of argues against one of the basic fears of Islam in the west. Islam can work with democracy.
Pls. take a look at my new site:
http://democraticduckham.wordpress.com
I have already linked to your excellent analysis above and would like to copy your comment (here) on most popular names and put that up in full as a main post; but feel I need your permission as you have put an enormous amount of work into this stuff.
Pls. leave a comment on one of the posts by way of an answer or e-mail direct: duckhamjohn@aol.com. Many thanks.
Very best regards,
John Duckham.
Two points:
ONE:
My foster Sudanese son studied medicine and obtained his medical degree in university in Egypt. He told me that there were regular seminars held by visiting Muslim clerics who made substantially the same claims made in the video. The clerics also claimed that they would take over Australia (I am an Australian) by 2050 through out-breeding us (each male would take 4 wives — serially, as polygamy is illegal — and produce four children by each wife). A Moslem cleric in Sydney made the exact same claim and one of our members of parliament was castigated for quoting the cleric (not politically correct). It is quite common in Australia to see a Muslim male well into his fifties with his (current) nineteen-year old wife.
Have you deliberately left out the quote by Muammar al-Gaddafi?
TWO:
The logic is flawed in the argument that it is possible to reverse the birth rate. There is a non sequitur when you point out that France’s birth-rate increased, rather than declined, without identifying the SOURCE of that growth. You want people to jump to the conclusion that all cultural groups in France have the same fertility rate and deliberately ignores the fact that the figures for that period included the AGGREGATE birth rate of ALL cultural/religious groups in France INCLUDING the Muslims. The video quite plainly separates the cultural groups. It would seem that most of the actual growth came from the Islamic sector of the population.
Just because someone says they’re “taking over” doesn’t mean it’s true. Sometimes, people say things that they want to believe. I think people often self-indulge in a bit of “triumphalism” – they want to believe their group is ‘taking over the world’. Not only does triumphalism make the believers more confident in the rightness of their own beliefs, but makes them feel that they are the future and the future looks bright.
I could also point out that there has been a decline in the percentage of European muslims who actually attend mosque.
That may be, but France’s population in 1945 was 40 million. It currently stands at 62 million. How much of that was due to Muslim immigration or birth rates? Well, you could argue that all of it is due to Muslim immigration/birthrates if you could claim 22 million (or 35%) of France’s population is Muslim. The BBC is claiming that France’s Muslim population is “Five to six million (8-9.6%)” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm).
Tinyfrog, just where do you originate from? Are you an American? What ethnicity are you? It is quite obvious that you must lean left in your political/social views.
Do you seriously think that is the only reason the NRA makes claims that “they’ll take your guns away” to drive up donations? Try checking out the laws that the U.S. government are trying to pass – believe me that is exactly what they are trying to do.
You seriously need to try doing some research on the Islam thing, try googling Europe/Muslims. You blame the fear mongering “right-wing” American Christians – I do believe the English, Germans, Danes, French, etc. are ahead of the Americans on this.
I can only surmise that your sympathies lie with the Muslim world because perhaps you are Muslim? Your whole article and reasoning is very disingenuous, trying to smooth over the true intent of the Muslims, making them look like Mr./Mrs. Good Neighbor. I am saddened that so many people on this forum are buying into that.
Yeah, I’m a muslim – as you can see from the subtitle of my blog: “Atheism, Evolution, Skepticism”. I also suggest clicking the “Islam” category to read my other Islam-related blog posts if that’s your opinion.
CM, just where do you originate from? Are you an American? What ethnicity are you?…
….. And what the hell has that got to do with ANYTHING? Can we just pay attention to the ARGUMENTS, please…
steeveetee,
The answer to those questions have to do with in what way tinyfrog is skewing his “facts”, etc. Read my first post on this site……..tinyfrog makes a lot of assumptions and innuendos on his information concerning the topic of this discussion. And since he is arguing that is what the makers of this video are doing he needs to own up to his own transgressions.
Or do you not like to find the truth to the questions that arise from this subject? Are you one of those just blindly believe others without trying to search out the truth for yourself? I would venture to say that there is truth and fiction on both sides of this argument, as is how most things go.
CM. If you mean that tinyfrog is coming from somewhere, of course he is. But then so are you. So are we all. What tinyfrog has done, to my mind however, is to show, in a fair and responsible way, the speciousness of many of the ‘facts’ and arguments of the originial Scary Muslim Movie.
In fact, he makes the whole case falls down as a bit of propagandising.
He demonstrates that it is in no way an attempt to discover the truth about anything. Rather the opposite. It’s main function is to hide the truth, dupe people who don’t know much about Europe, Muslims, birth rates or demographics. But I’m glad to say that the fact that hardly anyone else now seems to be debating this on the site, suggests people have been convinced of his logic and arguments – and Scary Muslim Movie has been totally discredited.
By the way, your argument that there are always two sides to any arguments is true. But, as in a court case, people bring arguments and logic to bear and come up with the most likely ‘explanation’. So, would you say, for example, that there may be two views about the Holocaust happening or not – but each is equally valid? Or that any version of who was responsible for 9/11 is equally valid? I doubt it.
Your claim that Muslims would have to have 26 children to make up 50% of births in the Netherlands shows that you don’t understand much about demography. I strongly suspect that the age distribution of the Muslim population is predominantly of childbearing age or younger, while the non-Muslim population has a large cohort of baby-boomers who are past childbearing age. Making some rough assumptions about age distribution, Muslims could account for 50% of all newborns with each couple averaging 6 children compared to an average of just over 1 child per non-Muslim couple. The real numbers may be higher or lower, but your calculations are absurd on their face, whereas the 50% claim–although surprising–is not.
“I strongly suspect…’ most Muslims are of childbearing age? Really? Until you provide some proof for this, your ‘suspicions’ are worthless. Facts please.
Likewise can we have some data for the ‘rough assumptions’ that Muslims ‘could’ account for 50% of newborns… and that the ‘non-Muslims’ population ‘has’ a large cohort of baby-boomers past childbearing age.
Muslims ‘could’ average 6 children as compared to an average of 1 one child per for non-Muslims? This is ‘true’ – only if you want to pluck the most credible scary number out of the ether to back up your fantasy. (why not 5, or 8, for example?)
This is all specious argument. And nonsense.
In the meantime, you should learn a little humility. Your claim that Tinyfrog ‘knows nothing about demographics’ would be laughable if it wasn’t so insulting. Unless you come up with some clear – and logical – refutations, I think this area of ‘debate’ is pretty much over.
steevetee,
Why do you do this to people’s posts? Rick’s post says “shows you don’t UNDERSTAND (emphasis mine) much about demography”. He did not say Tinyfrog “knows NOTHING (emphasis mine) about demographics”. It is this type of distortion that is dishonest and gives people the wrong impressions.
I think that it what is wrong with half the world, and liberal people in particular – they have all failed at comprehension. Just can not assimilate what they are reading.
Rick, you are right about not forgot age distribution. Making some rough assumptions about age distribution, Muslims could account for 50% of all birth in Netherlands with only 6% of the population and 15 children/woman fertility rate.
According to http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/download/download-2008/ and http://www.prb.org/Publications/Datasheets/2009/2009wpds.aspx?p=1 no muslim country (and no country at all) in the world has fertility rate higher than 7 children/woman. According to http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx?p=1 muslims living in Netherlands have fertility rate about 3 children/woman (fifth than the required 15 children/woman) and decreasing.
“The real numbers may be higher or lower, but your calculations are absurd on their face, whereas the 50% claim–although surprising–is not.”
The “50% claim” is obviously false and absurd, and of course no source is given.
steeveetee,
You can not be seriously comparing the Holocaust to this video on “Muslim Demographics”???? I have never heard anyone but Muslims deny the Holocaust. How interesting that you would actually use this as a comparison.
As far as 9/11 and the Holocaust you are talking about history, the “Muslim Demographics” video is dealing with projections of the future. Hardly a viable comparison.
There are people that have made comments on this site with valid arguments to what tinyfrog is saying, yet you completely dismiss them as you want to believe everything tinyfrog tells you. That I do not understand.
I have only pointed out that tinyfrog has made assumptions and innuendos that he has presented as truth and facts. Lord almighty if you read his commentary you should be able to see this. Fair and responsible only result when you use facts, which he/she has not done.
I disagree with your assumptions as to why no one is debating this subject on this site. I would tend to say that it is more because it doesn’t really much matter if someone shows how tinyfrog is skewing the information, those that want to blindly follow tinyfrog will choose to do so.
Please do not make the assumption that I completely agree with said video. I have read other information on this subject, and I do believe that there is truth to this subject. My belief has more to do with what I have read on how other countries and their inhabitants feel about the Muslim immigration issues. I also believe that this video has done some exaggerating.
nice post, recomended article, thanks for sharing
here what it is the king of saudi arabia are teeling people to go movie some where else well muslim thnik that they should take over the world
Oh punky238! I can decipher what you are saying, but half or more of the people on this forum won’t! Though I don’t want to believe what you say is true I am forced to do so.
Okay all you naysayers, take a look at this, then what say you???
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783
And please don’t just reply that it is fear mongering.
If that is so, what about this link?
http://www.reformislam.org/
And in regard to the above link, why in this link have they completely omitted the section Surah 9 (Ultimatum) in the Qur’an?? If they want to fight this fight, they need to leave it in there and address it, not ignore it.
Illusions of peace.
CM. Brother, what’s this got to do with Muslim Demographics?
Mate, go and get a life. Go and meet some actual Muslims. There are quite a few of them round the world. Most of them are family-loving, ordinary, hardworking and enterprising people who look after their neighbours. Talk to them. Go with them for a meal. The food’s great – from five continents. Drink some mint tea. Puff on a shisha pipe. Have a good chat. Meet the kids. Listen to some music with them. Dance. Read some history. Look at some geography. Travel a bit. Experience the hospitality. RELAX.
Morocco is a very beautiful country from my own experience. So is Lebanon. Go to the Bekaa. Drink some Arak. Damascus is said to be unspoilt and fabulous. Chill out brother. Life is too short for hatred. But even shorter for ignorance. And if you’re still nervous, I’ll show you around. Brick Lane, London for a curry on a Friday night. Edgware Road for some apple hubble bubble. Then off on the Eurostar to see the Mosquet in Paris with it’s nice little cafe – and great cakes.
Or, if you’d prefer something a bit nearer home, and Istanbul or Cairo is too far, there’s a lovely mosque in Culver City that’s worth a visit just for the architecture. I’ve been there. Ok, it’s called the King Fahad Mosque but if his friendship was good enough for George Bush Snr during Desert Storm, it ought to be good enough for any patriotic American.
Must have touched a raw nerve, hey, mate? What this has to do with Muslim Demographics is what the whole point was in the Muslim Demographics video. Duh. Their whole goal is to rule the world, duh. Part of the plan is to, oh my gosh, over populate all countries.
There are people on this site that are “Oh, let’s have peace, love and whatever with all these wonderful Muslim people”, and all the while there is this undercurrent of Muslims that would just as soon chop your head off.
But that is okay, you just keep your delusional thoughts, “Don’t worry, be happy”………..
And thanks, but no thanks, I do not care to associate with people that want to kill me.
Oh gee, I must be a christian, right wing loon…………..
Oh, and neither George H. W.Bush or George W. Bush is/are/were patriots. Guess being from what, Great Britain, you wouldn’t realize that would you?
Very interesting how you have not addressed my question. I would have to assume you have no answer.
Ta, ta, mate.
No. I’m serious. Confront your demons. 🙂 You name the location. Let’s walk round together and talk about it. Brick Lane or Edgware Road, London; 10980 Washington Blvd, Culver City; Essaouira, Morocco; Dahieh, Lebanon. Let’s meet some real Muslim people and then have this conversation. Stop generalising, stop talking out of your arse and see what it’s really like.
My friend’s mum, for example. She’s a Muslim. Single parent. Two grown up daughters. Came from Mozambique not speaking a word of English. Married at 18 but walked out on her bastard hubby ten years later, taking the kids. Having time off at the moment from her clerical work in a government office to fight her breast cancer. Goes for a very painful chemo treatment every third Tuesday. Hates the hijab but wears a rather bonny scarf at the moment to hide the fact she’s lost all her hair. About which irony we can joke.
Her daughter’s bi-sexual, by the way. She’s just been in Paris with some gay friends of ours – lesbians. Both of whom her mum loves, and loves to to have stay when they come to London.
She still has verses from the Koran on her fridge though. And prays regularly.
Of course, she’s not typical. But who is? Have you been round London recently? Have you seen all the teenagers and young women on the tube in their fashion-hijab? Fashion-jilbab? Eye-makeup, blusher and lipstick an inch thick. Their clothes a riot of colour and self-advertisement.
Of course, you may want to say this proves your point about the Islamification of Europe. But then you hear them on their mobiles – talking in street slang about – and to – boys; about Michael Jackson, shopping at Primark and who’s in and who’s out on the X Factor. And the accent is pure Ali G, innit!
So where does that leave us? With complexity. By all means look at Scary Muslim movies. But if that is your only source of information about reality, then your thoughts and actions are going to be horribly skewed and unbalanced. Knowlege is power, as we all know. And one of the most obvious sources of knowledge is contact with the human beings involved. In this case, Muslims.
So, it was meant as a genuine question. Will you do the trip?
In spite of the facts mentioned, this clip is a presentation and a wake-up call to all of you who know very little about Islam, in a brief it is an ideology and a political system that was never and will ever be a religion that have or even can (for that matter) contributed to the advancement or the betterment of the human race, but rather pulled further backwards, it is simply nothing but a satanic religion with satanic instructions calling specifically to the destruction of the human race, the facts and the evidence are ample in the Koran and the hadeeth of the false prophet, backed by the accredited tafaseer(the books of explanations) of the fathers (if we may call them as such) of this so called faith, such as Bouckary, Muslim and Ibn Katheer, just to name few famous ones. Examples are many and here are few also:
1- A prophet that kills people and order to kill others at his own behest (Um Kerfa).
2- Invades other tribes, kills the father, husband and brother of a woman (Safia), then sleeps with her on the road.
3- Takes a child of six to bed and then takes her as a wife at the age of nine (9) years (consummate as enters in her) (Aisha).
4- They are taught to curse other people and kill and take their possessions by force.
5- They are to take four wives and bring forth many kids so as to increase the nation of Allah the name of the god they worship.
6- They are to invade other tribes and other nations and by force ask them to enter Islam, if not must then pay jizea (that is ten times the tax of a Muslim).
7- If you curse the god they worship (Allah), you can be forgiven, but if you say anything against their false prophet, then you should be killed, and this is hallal (right and legal).
8- You have no freedom to ask about this so called faith or that of leaving it, if you do, then your blood is spilled, thus any Muslim can kill you.
9- This prophet was made god and equal to this god they worship (named Akbar).
10- They never believe in the Ten Commandments, and twist every fact recorded in the Holy Scripture old and new (after 640 A.D.).
There are thousands of other reasons and facts our brothers and sisters in Christ do not know about, and they have no knowledge of whatsoever (as it is the same to Muslims themselves), because there is no way for them to get to read and know the mothers of the books they believe in, and in Arabic, and if they read anything of that of which is translated, they have no clue that a translation of the meaning is nothing but a twisting of the facts, for the meaning of the literal translation and in accordance with the grammatical meaning of the word is much closer to the real meaning than that of a translation that is conveniently twists the meaning, to beautify the sentence to the innocent and simple, none Arabic speaking native person.
Dear Friend – this is in danger of sounding like a missive from Planet Fruitcake. As I said in a recent reply – go and meet some run of the mill average Jo Muslims and then you’ll realise whatever it says in the Hadith or in the Koran, they love their kids, work hard and want the same things out of life as anyone else. Including you.
And I say that as someone who is not a believer in any god.
To describe the religion of a billion plus people – including my friend (above) as satanic is not only a wee bit satanic in itself – but is in danger of sounding utterly barmy.
Wherever you are in the world, you can not be far away from some Jo Average Muslims. Go and talk to them. Don’t worry. If you’re polite, they won’t bite. They’ll be interested that you’re interested – and you will have a nice time. 🙂 The food and hospitality is second to none. So what are you waiting for?
steeveetee,
And just what flavor of kool-aid are you drinking today? I think you pretty much put it in a nut shell – your words come from someone that does not believe in any God.
If you believed in God you would know that he would not advocate the content of the Qu’ran and what the Muslim beliefs are. Describing Islam as a religion is blasphemy. Maybe it could be described as a faith of sorts. A belief, yes. A cult, yes, but not in the religious context.
Your dismissal of the Qu’ran or Hadith is ludicrous not to mention dangerous. That would be the same as dismissing the Bible when discussing Christians. I am surprised that all your wonderful Muslim friends don’t call you out on that. Perhaps they do not know your true feelings, else they would probably behead you.
Have you yet tried to do some research on the subject of Islam and Europe? Try it, get an education, bring yourself out of your dream world.
Kumbaya, Steeveetee, Kumbaya.
CM.
Wow! You have a hotline to your God and he tells you what does and does not count as a religion? And Islam doesn’t. I learn something new every day. Fascinating. 🙂
Would it be possible to do a credit rating for most of the major league world religions for me? Viz: Buddism, Judaism, Catholicism, the Sikh religion, Shinto, the Jain religion and Hinduism for me? I’d be interested in your God’s pecking order.
When are you going to take up my invitation vis a vis meeting some real Muslims, by the way, rather than those nasty beheading ones of your over-fertile imagination? Radio silence on that one so far but I live in hope… I’d really hate to think you were fret. As the man said: put your money where your mouth is… 🙂
You know, I’d really love to meet you. You fascinate me. I’ve never met anyone like you before. Not face to face. 🙂
“about Islam, in a brief it is an ideology and a political system that was never and will ever be a religion that have or even can (for that matter) contributed to the advancement or the betterment of the human race, but rather pulled further backwards, it is simply nothing but a satanic religion with satanic instructions calling specifically to the destruction of the human race” (adaniel)
Does this support the video’s claims?
Please know the facts before defending someone, and please see the deference between the human and his believes, and make the efforts to talk about the LORD GOD creator of all, seen and unseen, and that of which was manifested in the fulfillment of time, to us in human form as the logos of our GOD the Word that became flesh and dwelt and lived among us?
May the Word be your sword to defend the truth and stop all lies, and may God our father bless you all!
Steeveetee,
You really need to knock off the loony liberal spinning……I DID NOT say “God says” what is and what is not a religion. I SAID, “If you believed in God you would know that he would not advocate the content of the Qu’ran and what the Muslim beliefs are.” Got it? Or shall I repeat it again?
Read your dictionary, look up the different words: religion, faith, belief, cult.
The Islam “faith” does not believe in the Christian God…….and I would surmise that that would fall right in line with your non-belief, so therefore you would be sympathetic to the Islam “faith”.
I can’t say the same about not having met anyone like you steeveetee, I have met lots of loony liberals and you all sound the same…..twist and spin. Let’s see, steeveetee, how vast your knowledge is…….what if I were to tell you that I live smack dab in the center of Dearborn, Michigan. What does that mean to you?
‘Muslim capital of America’. Ok. Good. Now where do we go from that little revelation? Who do you know there? Invite me. Let’s go around town together. Meet some people. I’ll do some research. Go to my Google Street View. Find somewhere neutral for our first meet-up. And let’s arrange some interviews, family visits. Talk to some ordinary Muslim folk. Your turf not mine so I’ll have no advantage of local knowledge…
January would be good for me. How old are you, by the way. Seeing that we’re getting to know one another. I’m 61. A loony liberal Londoner as you may have guessed. 🙂
Okay, now I know you are loony! I think I will skip this invite. I have no desire to get chummy with Muslims, let alone meet with someone that I have no clue as to who they are, etc., etc.
Funny, you say “arrange some interviews, family visits……..like that is going to show what goes on in the hearts and minds of anyone, let alone Muslims. Luqman Ameen Abdullah has been described as “a great guy”, yet he drew his gun on FBI Agents………I think his actions speak as to how great a guy he is.
How many people thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy? And of course, we could go on and on with others like him.
You have yet to show any facts to dispute what others have posted here in regard to what the Qur’an says and what the Muslim’s are taught in the name of “religion”. You only discuss what great people you think Muslims are. Is that also your opinion of the Nazi’s or those that did nothing when the Nazi’s slaughtered millions of people? “Oh, they’re quite jolly people, just got to get to know them.”
Actually, since you brought up your age, a lot of people in your age bracket scare the heck out of me……..I think too many of you got stuck in the “Peace, Love and Drugs” era.
There are evil people out there, steeveetee, for all you know I could be one of them.
Muslims are fighting and percecuting
(a) one another Sunnis and Shiites (Iraq)
(b) one another when even of the same sect (Pakistan)
(c) Christians Palestine Malaysia Sudan etc. etc.
(d) Jews Israel
(e) Buddist Border area between Thailand and Malaysia
(h) Hindus Inda
(I) Bahai Middle east
and if you look hard enough you will find more and more conflict caused by Muslim fanatics.
Islam was born and grown by the sword it continoues to expand in third world countries and middle eastern countries by percecution intolerance guns/swords and money
The old saying One rotten Apple will send the whole lot rotten.
The so called moderates do absolutey nothing in banding together to rid their faith of the fanatics. Thus Non Muslims have no way of telling which muslims are fanatics and which Muslims have been tainted by hardline clerics and thus could have hidden agendas. Thus the tendency to treat the whole lot as bad.
Others may consider me to be Islamophobic so be it, but I consider myself as a realist.
I would rather live in any democratic country with a muslim absolute minority than a country that has a muslim majority.
I have posted a reply to a july entry about a quarter of the way down if you are interested in more of my thoughts.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1422398485325252375#
Your list is far from comprehensive. Without thinking about it very much you will find Muslims fighting in Southern Thailand. Indonesia (several places, different reasons), Philippines, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan…. and probably every other Muslim country.
steeveetee, this is not based in or on any facts of anything. I ask you for facts. Although I like Morgan Spurlock, he does not produce any facts of anything.
Since you have so many Muslim friends, explain Qur’an Surah 9 (Ultimatum) and Surah 48 (The Victory) and Surah 63 (The Hypocrites).
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=216_1207467783
“Terrorist Hezbollah is also firmly established in Michigan and in 2006 the owner of the La Shish chain of 15 US restaurants, Talal Chahine, fled to Lebanon rather than facing federal charges that he had both evaded paying taxes and funneled $20 million in profits to Hezbollah. This is but one case and there is little doubt other terrorist-supporting activities continue to occur right under our radar. Dearborn’s Al Mabarat “charitable organization” has also been named in providing funds to Hezbollah and on 31 July 3,500 Dearborn Muslims marched in support of Hezbollah and shouted: “Jews are diseased!” The assertions by many that Michigan is the capital of Hezbollah in the United States, seems an appropriate assessment. But, Hezbollah is not the only Islamic terrorist organization that has a stronghold in Michigan. Terrorist groups al-Qaeda, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and al-Gama’at al-Islamiyya are also firmly entrenched in the state. And it is not only in Michigan that these terrorists have gained a foothold — their presence is now spread throughout the US. We continue to allow the presence of those within our country who have stated and are bent upon overthrowing and destroying it. Too many tolerance-advocates continue to act in an insane and self-destructive manner by allowing these incursions to exist — placing the rest of us not only at risk but, at the mercy of our destructors. And it is now happening not only on our soil but, in our backyards.”
the blog is good i like it very mcu
Tinyfrog, I applaud you for pointing out the many flaws in this video. But I also am a little dismayed at your persistent jabs at “the right-wing Christians” in your effort to prove your point. Islam is a religious, philosophical and political belief system that is very different from the Judeo-Christian religion/philosophy that forms much of the basis for Western culture. Many people – of all religions – are concerned that Muslims are not assimilating into the Western countries into which they immigrate.
It serves no purpose to claim that this just some bogeyman for “right-wing Christians.” If conservative Christians are more attuned to this than others, it’s just that they are paying attention. We are seeing in Europe the development of a Muslim underclass that is often downright hostile to the greater society in which it lives. This is so even though other non-Western immigrants (like East Asians, sub-Saharan Africans, and Caribbeans) are at the same time breaking into the ranks of the European middle classes. This trend holds true again and again. British Hindus are far more successful than their Muslim counterparts, even though they both hail from South Asia. In France, black Christians are consistently more successful than black Muslims (and Arab Christians are consistently more successful than Arab Muslims), and Chinese and Vietnamese Buddhists are also doing well. In Italy, Romanians are doing much better than Albanians. And on and on. Integrating Muslims into the mainstream is proving far more difficult than that for any other religious group. As their share of the population is growing (albeit not as quickly as this video claims), one has to wonder where Europe is heading.
John: Good post.
Here is an interesting article I ran across, I didn’t realize the United States has been fighting Islamic terrorism since its inception:
Terrorism and the New American Republic
In 1786, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson met with Arab diplomats from Tunis, who were conducting terror raids and piracy against American ships.
History records them as the Barbary Pirates. In fact, they were blackmailing terrorists, hiding behind a self-serving interpretation of their Islamic faith by embracing select tracts and ignoring others. Borrowing from the Christian Crusades of centuries past, they used history as a mandate for doing the western world one better. The quisling European powers had been buying them off for years.
On March 28, 1786 Jefferson and Adams detailed what they saw as the main issue:
“We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretensions to make war upon a Nation who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our Friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation. The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Thomas Jefferson wanted a military solution, but decades of blackmailing the American Republic and enslaving its citizens would continue until the new American nation realized that the only answer to terrorism was force.
“There’s a temptation to view all of our problems as unprecedented and all of our threats as new and novel,” says George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley. Shortly after the terror attacks of Sept. 11, Turley advised some members of Congress who were considering a formal declaration of war against the suspected perpetrators. He invoked the precedent of the Barbary pirates, saying America had every right to attack and destroy the terrorist leadership without declaring war.
“Congress did not actually declare war on the pirates,” Turley wrote in a memo, “but ‘authorized’ the use of force against the regencies after our bribes and ransoms were having no effect. This may have been due to an appreciation that a declaration of war on such petty tyrants would have elevated their status. Accordingly, they were treated as pirates and, after a disgraceful period of accommodation, we hunted them down as pirates.”
Because of their outlaw conduct, pirates — and modern-day terrorists — put themselves outside protection of the law, according to military strategy expert Dave McIntyre, a former dean at the National War College. “On the high seas if you saw a pirate, you sank the bastard,” he says. “You assault pirates, you don’t arrest pirates.”
Shoot first, ask questions later. Wanted: Dead or alive. Such is our official policy regarding Osama bin Laden, the most infamous outlaw of the era.
One of the enduring lessons of the Barbary campaigns was to never give in to outlaws, whether you call them pirates or terrorists. In the late 1700s, America paid significant blackmail for peace — shelling out $990,000 to the Algerians alone at a time when national revenues totaled just $7 million.
“Too many concessions have been made to Algiers,” U.S. consul William Eaton wrote to the Secretary of State in 1799. “There is but one language which can be held to these people, and this is terror.”
Michael G. Leventhal
Editor & Publisher DOJgov.net
Is this what you really want for YOUR country:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece
http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/01/sharia-law-aliv.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/former-muslim-warns-west-about-threat-of-sharia-law/
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/former-muslim-warns-west-about-threat-of-sharia-law/
[…] The bulk of the bunk in that video is debunked by Tiny Frog. […]
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Not sure about the content of this article, although it is pretty much unnecessarily dissing the Cardinal, it affirms the immigration of the Muslims and how much this immigration is growing.
The writer of this article dismisses the fact of people converting as not being a big deal. I would have to disagree with that – the U.S. has had many terrorist attacks and deaths due to persons that have converted to Islam. I would say that is a problem.
I reply at another time but…
On the whole the video is more correct than your assumptions.
Muslims are on the increase.
Fertilitate rates of muslims in foreign countries where Social Benefits backup them up are on the up.
The diffuculties of moving to a foreign country do not in fact therefore reduce fertility.
THE VIDEO IS NEAR THE TRUE THAN WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE WRITING.
Arfa.
“On the whole the video is more correct than your assumptions.”
Evidence?
“THE VIDEO IS NEAR THE TRUE THAN WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE WRITING.”
Evidence?
Nicolas,
Try reading all that has been written here. The evidence is here, but if you don’t care to bother to read it or you chose not to believe it, then please do your own research. The only ones here that do not give any credence to the video are people that have not bothered to do their own research.
Pay particular attention to Afra’s post – “On the whole” and “your assumptions”. Afra does NOT say that the video is 100% correct. And if you carefully read TinyFrog’s opinion you will see that he does not provide many facts for his assertions, he does an awful lot of assuming. Just because he puts forth an opinion does not make it true.
“The evidence is here” (C. M.)
Feel free to show material supporting this claim.
“The only ones here that do not give any credence to the video are people that have not bothered to do their own research.”
Feel free to show material supporting this claim.
“Afra does NOT say that the video is 100% correct.”
Feel free to said wich part of the video are correct in your opinion (and in Afra’s opinion if you are a mind-reader).
Nicolas,
I have already taken the time to research this subject and posted on this thread what I have found. Including picking apart quite a few areas where Tiny Frog has made opinions and assumptions.
If you would bother to take the time to read what all has been written here, and take the time to understand what is written, you would not be asking these questions.
The evidence/material are all here.
“Nicolas,
I have already taken the time to research this subject and posted on this thread what I have found. Including picking apart quite a few areas where Tiny Frog has made opinions and assumptions.
If you would bother to take the time to read what all has been written here, and take the time to understand what is written, you would not be asking these questions.
The evidence/material are all here.” (C. M.)
Well, all your post that I can see in this page are this, 2009-09-05, 2009-10-14, 2009-10-15, 2009-10-19, 2009-10-19, 2009-11-03, 2009-11-03, 2009-11-29, 2009-11-29, 2009-12-02, 2009-12-02, 2009-12-28, 2009-12-28, 2010-01-04, 2010-01-04, 2010-01-04, 2010-01-04, 2010-01-04, 2010-01-05, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-23, 2010-01-25, 2010-01-26, 2010-02-06, 2010-02-07. The only wich deal with tinyfrog’s criticism of “Muslim Demographics” video are this wich refer to “Fitna” video wich confirm tinyfrog’s claim that “There are approximately 1 million Muslims in the Netherlands”, this, this wich claim that the Muslim “whole goal is to rule the world, duh. Part of the plan is to, oh my gosh, over populate all countries.” and that “there is this undercurrent of Muslims that would just as soon chop your head off.
But that is okay, you just keep your delusional thoughts”, possibly this, possibly this, possibly this wich said that “I also believe that this video has done some exaggerating.”. None of them show evidence against tinyfrog’s arguments or evidence supporting “Muslim Demographics”, but if I missed something then feel free to point it to me.
Nicolas,
Read all the material that is here, that means e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Okay? Not just my posts, all of them. Read and truly comprehend it.
I don’t think there is one person here, me included, that is saying this video is 100% correct. We are saying that it is mostly true – Tiny Frog is trying to say it is mostly false.
Try googling the subject. See what the European nations are saying about this subject and related items such as immigration.
“Not just my posts, all of them.” (C. M.)
Do you mean that your sentence “I have already taken the time to research this subject and posted on this thread what I have found.” is lying?
“We are saying that it is mostly true”
Feel free to show evidence that “this video […] is mostly true”.
Side note: of course the video is true when it claim there is a continent called “Europe”; when it claim there is a country called “Germany”; when it claim there is are muslims in Netherlands; when it claim there is a guy called “Gaddafi”; when it claim there is a media called “Brussels Journal”.
“Try googling the subject.”
I did it last year, but thank you for this advice.
Arfa, you are so correct in your statement saying “The video is near the true than what most people are writing”.
They will wake up when it is too late.
So Nicolas Krebs…..just going back and reading your comments. Did you ever do any research? Probably not, huh?
Funny, looking back at what you have written – you did nothing but attack the proof that was given to you. You didn’t even provide anything to refute the facts……just attacked others.
Your mindset is no more than a Progressive loon. You twist words and spin things that others say. In the two years since these posts were made I have dealt with so many of your kind – only takes a sentence or two from you to peg you 🙂
“Did you ever do any research?” (C. M.)
Yes I did.
“Probably not, huh?” (C. M.)
The references about CIA 2008, PRB 2008, PRB 2009, that I put in my previous comments, did not pop up in my mind. I found them, after searching.
PS: Which parts of the video are correct in your opinion?
If all I knew about Christianity came from the comments here by Christians, I would support a worldwide ban on it.
#1 You are making presumptions that the people posting on here are Christians.
#2 When did you do your research on Islam?
I tried pulling facts about Islam out, but you were already accessing your butt, C.M.
It is quite obvious you know nothing about Christianity nor Islam, but that is okay, you are among many, many others – we understand.
After you have done some extensive research we will enjoy your coming back here to post something intelligent.
You are a typical left loony progressive liberal – have no facts to debate with so you resort to attacking. With that, thank goodness, you are in a group that is becoming more and more of a minority.
Have a nice day!
[…] I could go into point by point rebuttals on how this video blatantly exaggerates clear facts, Europe will not be come predominantly Islamic […]
Hi there, especially tinyfrog who doing a good job analyst.
8.1 fertility rate in france, make sense if muslim guys can married 4 wives at same time and produce 2 cute babies each other. . 😀
DocR: “FACT: The actual infant mortality rate in Morocco is ~40 deaths for every 1000 live births. That means that, on average, if a woman in Morocco were to attempt to have 1040 babies, 40 of them would die. A less than 4% chance that a child will die at (or soon after) birth for any given birth attempt.”
Yikes! 40 out of 1000 is — exactly — 4 percent. You are doing other things and says (wrongly) “öless than 4%”.
Also you are wrong that the numbers of children per Muslim women in France in average may be 8. this movie says it’s 8.2, but actually one source says 2.8; Francois Legros, Insée Prémière 898, May 2003. (The digits are presented in reversed order?) This may be slightly more than in North African countries. (I guess slightly more children per Muslim women in the West may have its reasons, but I don’t know them.)
I have found other errors in this video, which maybe mentioned in this post…
Anyway, in western countries it seems that Muslim women generally got an average of 0.5 to 1 more children per women than women of western origin, and this _in addition to migration_ (important!) means that the Muslim population in the West double say each 15-20 years…
Ms.Observer. If the number 8.1 is children per family, not per woman (which is how the fertility rate is expressed), then it’s a completely different unit with which we don’t measure population growth. The only relevant number is children per woman.
[…] demographics https://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/ – tears into all of the statistics in a highly detailed […]
I knwo somewhat about demographics. ;o) And it is generally the case the immigrants actually have more children in the first generation (more or less what they have in their own countries) and then tend to have the same patterns as the host society and sometime dropping even BELOW the the rates of the birht countries.
I will give you the example of Germany, since I know the numbers here:
A German woman has about 1.3 children, Turkish women have their children earlier and have 1.5, with the last child mostly around age of 23 to 25. African women have 1.9 children, bearing them at the same age as Turkish women do. Asian women have their children at the age of 25 to 35 years and have and average of 1.8. The Turkish women are in 2nd and 3rd generation and have approached those of the German women. Africans and Asians who are mostly in 1st generation still have high birth rates, but the 2nd gegeration already shows a downward trend for them also.
So a “worst case” scenario for Germany would be an overall Muslim population of 10 to 12% by 2030. This number however ignores the fact that some cities like Frankfurt, Munich or Stuttgart will have Muslim populations of over 50% since they do already range from 20 to 30% today. This, as I said was the “worst case” scenario. BUT: Immigration form East Asia, non-Muslim African states and Latin America has increased, while the migration balance with Turkey is negative, means the Turkish population is löeaving more than there is Turkish people immigrating. This could also mean that they will be “outbreeded” by the 1st generation immigrants with high fertility rates which may reverse the trend and make overall percentage of Islam shrinking.
However, both scenarios truely show that Germans as we all know today, will slowly disappear and become either mixed or die out. This process will be much faster in the Netherlands, Belgium or France, since they have higher rates of “non-whites” and Belgium, the Netherlands or Sweden have small populations, thus all the immigration will show it’s effects earlier.
I am also pretty sure that Islam will experience a strong wave of secularization and they will surely be as hit by atheism and non-practising members as any other religion. Islam’s radicalism may even lead to a faster decline of the religion, since we see Catholic Church shrinking faster than Protestant Churches either.
It is a matter of time. It will start with Iran and other countries will be affected and this could mean a downward spiral for Islam.
Thank you. I am linking this story, well done.
[…] See also: Anti-Muslim Immigration Video Spreads Fear, Distorts Truth and a detailed analysis. […]
[…] […]
[…] Muslim Demographics « Tiny Frog […]
TinyFrog, thanks for the good analysis. Where this stupid video came from? Fox? Only they are capable for such a despicable lie.
The fact is that the video is incorrect. However, you do not need to exaggerate the facts to come to some unpleasant conclusions. The majority of the Moslems in the UK come from Pakistan. Their fertility rate is double the rest of the UK population, and it is not falling with the 2nd and 3 rd generation. Large numbers of Moslems are coming into the country through immigration. While other groups that have come to the UK have largely integrated, the Moslems are not integrating. The UK has one of the highest population densities in the world – we need to reduce our population not increase it.
You do not have to be a majority to have political weight far above your numbers – you only have to look at minorities like the Catalans in Spain to see how a minority can much more influence than numbers by playing off two groups against each other. If a moslem political party developed in the UK they could easily play off the different kuffir groups to achieve concessions.
Since 9/11 and 7/7 it would seem that the violence, far from generating a backlash against the Moslems here, has lead to fear and further concessions to them.
If we are in a democracy then the local population should be consulted if they wish to have large numbers of Moslems living amongst them. It would appear to be only polite that a foreigner living in a foreign land should have respect for the local culture, in the same way that we do when we live in Moslem countries.
Islam is a religion of Peace – and they will kill anyone who says it isn’t.
(Btw, before anyone starts shouting racist – I am married to a foreigner who is not white, and have spent many years living in Moslem countries.)
Stay in your dream worlds people where it is nice and cozy, no boogie men there.
[…] you’re interested, here’s a rather dry but factual correction of the misinformation in the link […]
Yes, this video is more alarmist than anything else.
However, I would like to point out that Muslim men are allowed to have up to four wives at the same time. (As long as they can provide for them, says the Qu’ran.) Therefore, an 8.1 fertility rate could be more like a 2.02 fertility rate per woman. (Assuming all Muslim men had 4 wives, which of course they do not.)
All I’m trying to say is that having multiple wives affects the equation greatly. There is no way my wife is popping out 8.1 kids! But, if she and my three other wives only had to have 2 kids… well, that’d be easier to handle, eh?
Just some thoughts.
Oh, and the crazy site that this video gets most of its statistics from is here: http://www.tldm.org/tldmstore/GlobalJihad.htm
Main Page: http://www.tldm.org/default.htm
Cheers,
Cody
Finally, they start awakening:
Muslims take over America? Bollocks, I – CrackHitler – will exterminate them all and create the pure race.
HEILYOUR FUHRER
You can manufacture weapons, you can make Israil, you can build the largest factories, but you can not extinguish the light of the Lord God Almighty one with your tongues …
” Surely the likeness of Issa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was. ”
” O followers of the Book (bible)! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the Truth; the Messiah, Issa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God: far be it from His glory that He should have a son; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; and Allah is sufficient for a protector * The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself ”
Salam ala man itabaa el houda
Peace be upon those who follow true guidance
Obviously, some facts argued by extreme rightist groups are false but I need to say that we (especially men) must conceive european women to marry and bore children more often and earlier. If every european woman have had one more child in comparison to today’s data, no one would have alarmed that european fertility is so low. What’s more such people like me – who declare istself as non-believer – must strive for a larger family. We, atheists or agnostics will have to do what our religious brothers cannot do in contemporary world – produce more children.
What “extreme rightist groups” would you be referring to? You use the words “obviously” and “false”. Could you please show some evidence that they are false?
I see many posts here that give statistics given by very refutable organizations or governments. Are they also false? I suppose if one goes through life believing no one and nothing other than their own conjectures and suppositions as many here do, then that would be their thinking.
Whether one is a believer, atheist, agnostic does not enter into facts. Opinions maybe, but not facts.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece
The Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years, according to official research collated for The Times.
The population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million.
Experts said that the increase was attributable to immigration, a higher birthrate and conversions to Islam during the period of 2004-2008, when the data was gathered. They said that it also suggested a growing willingness among believers to describe themselves as Muslims because the western reaction to war and terrorism had strengthened their sense of identity.
Muslim leaders have welcomed the growing population of their communities as academics highlighted the implications for British society, integration and government resources.
David Coleman, Professor of Demography at Oxford University, said: “The implications are very substantial. Some of the Muslim population, by no means all of them, are the least socially and economically integrated of any in the United Kingdom … and the one most associated with political dissatisfaction. You can’t assume that just because the numbers are increasing that all will increase, but it will be one of several reasonable suppositions that might arise.”
Professor Coleman said that Muslims would naturally reap collective benefits from the increase in population. “In the growth of any population … [its] voice is regarded as being stronger in terms of formulating policy, not least because we live in a democracy where most people in most religious groups and most racial groups have votes. That necessarily means their opinions have to be taken and attention to be paid to them.”
There are more than 42.6 million Christians in Britain, according to the Office for National Statistics, whose figures were obtained through the quarterly Labour Force Survey of around 53,000 homes. But while the biggest Christian population is among over-70s bracket, for Muslims it is the under-4s.
Ceri Peach, Professor of Social Geography at Manchester University, said that the rapid growth of the Muslim population posed challenges for society. “The groups with the strongest belief in the family and cohesion are those such as the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. They have got extremely strong family values but it goes together with the sort of honour society and other kinds of attributes which people object to,” he said. “So you are dealing with a pretty complex situation.”
Professor Peach said that the high number of Muslims under the age of 4 — 301,000 as of September last year — would benefit Britain’s future labour market through taxes that would subsequently contribute to sustaining the country’s ageing population. He added, though, that it would also put pressure on housing and create a growing demand for schools. “I think housing has traditionally been a difficulty because the country is simultaneously short of labour and short of housing. So if you get people to fill vacancies in your labour force you also need to find places for them to live,” he said.
Muhammad Abdul Bari, general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, predicted that the number of mosques in Britain would multiply from the present 1,600 in line with the rising Islamic population. He said the greater platform that Muslims would command in the future should not be perceived as a threat to the rest of society.
“We each have our own set of beliefs. This should really be a source of celebration rather than fear as long as we all clearly understand that we must abide by the laws of this country regardless of the faith we belong to,” he said.
The Cohesion Minister, Sadiq Khan, told The Times: “We in central Government and local authorities need to continue our work to ensure that our communities are as integrated and cohesive as possible.”
Growing numbers
The total number of Muslims in Great Britain:
2004: 1,870,000
2005: 2,017,000
2006: 2,142,000
2007: 2,327,000
2008: 2,422,000
Source: Labour Force Survey
Related Links
* Religion helps shape public policy says Government minister Stephen Timms
4.2.11. Switzerland: Based on census data [UN64, UN73, CH], the Swiss population was
increased from 5,429,061 in 1960, to 6,269,783 in 1970, to 6,365,960 in 1980, to 6,873,700
in 1990, then to 7,288,010 in 2000. Thus, the average annual Swiss population growth rate
between 1960 and 1970 was 1.45%, which decreased sharply to 0.15% between 1970 and
1980, then increased to 0.77% between 1980 and 1990 then decreased to 0.59% between
1990 and 2000. In comparison, the Muslim population grew from 2,703 or 0.05% in 1960, to
16,353 or 0.26% in 1970, to 56,600 or 0.89% in 1980, to 152,200 or 2.21% in 1990, to
310,807 or 4.26% in 2000. Thus, the average annual Muslim population growth rate between
1960 and 1970 was 19.73%, which decreased to 13.22% between 1970 and 1980, then to
10.40% between 1980 and 1990, then to 7.40% between 1990 and 2000. This caused the
Muslim population to almost triple from 1980 to 1990 and more than double by 2000.
Accordingly, the Muslim population increased by six fold from 1960 to 1970, more than
tripled by 1980, then nearly tripled by 1990, then doubled by 2000. Since the annual growth
rate of the Swiss Muslim population is more than twelve times the total population growth
rate, the percentage of Muslims in Switzerland is expected to continue its sharp increase.
4.4.7. Ireland: Based on census data [IE], the Irish population was 3,525,719 in 1991, rising
to 2,917,203 in 2002, then 4,239,848 in 2006. Thus, the average annual Irish population
growth rate between 1991 and 2002 was 0.96%, which more than doubled between 2002 and
2006 to 2.00%. In comparison, the Muslim population was 3,875 or 0.11% in 1991, climbing
to 19,147 or 0.49% in 2002, then 32,539 or 0.76% in 2006. Thus, the average annual Muslim
Proceedings of the 8th Hawaii International Conference on Arts and Humanities, Honolulu, Hawaii, January 2010
population growth rate between 1991 and 2002 was 15.00%, which slightly decreased to
14.18% between 2002 and 2006. This caused the Muslim population to increase fivefold
from 1991 to 2002 and nearly double by 2006. Thus, the percentage of Muslims in Ireland is
expected to continue its steep increase.
5.4.2. Canada: National census in Canada is conducted every five years. However, religious
affiliation information is collected every other census, i.e., every ten years. According to
census data [UN93, UN], the Canadian population increased from 24,343,181 in 1981, to
27,296,859 in 1991, to 30,007,094 in 2001. Thus, the average Canadian annual population
growth rate between 1981 and 1991 was 1.15%, which decreased to 0.95% between 1991 and
2001. Information about Muslim adherents started being beginning with the 1991 census. The
1981 census indicated that there are 27,475 people or 0.11% of the total population that
confesses other religions apart from the ones listed. The 1991 census reported that the
Muslim population was 253,265 or 0.93% of the total population, which indicates that the
Canadian Muslim population increased by more than tenfold from 1981 to 1991. This
population then more than doubled to 579,640 or 1.96% in 2001, at an average annual growth
rate of 8.63%. Thus the percentage of Muslims in Canada is expected to continue its steep
improvement.
6.11. New Zealand: According to census data [UN, NZ], the Islands’ population increased
from 3,618,303 in 1996, to 3,737,277 in 2001, to 4,027,947 in 2006. Thus, the average annual
New Zealand population growth rate between 1996 and 2001 was 0.65%, which more than
doubled to 1.51% between 2001 and 2006. Data about Muslim affiliation started being
included in the New Zealand census in 1996. Accordingly, the Muslim population grew from
13,548 or 0.37% in 1996, to 23,631 or 0.63% in 2001, to 36,072 or 0.90% in 2006. Thus, the
average annual Muslim population growth rate between 1996 and 2001 was 11.78%, which
decreased to 8.82% between the years 2001 and 2006. Thus, the percentage of Muslims in
New Zealand is expected to keep improving.
While the world population annual growth rate is estimated at 1.194%, the corresponding rate
for the World Muslim population is 1.705%. Thus, the representation of Muslims with
rerspect to the total World population is expected to increase at over one percentage point
each decade, reaching one out of four by 2020, and one out of three by 2075. This is
illustrated in Table 7.5. from 2000 to 2075.
Year Population Muslim % Muslims
2000 6,150,471,087 22.72 1,397,526,691
2010 6,925,824,107 23.90 1,654,941,394
2020 7,798,921,234 25.13 1,959,770,095
2030 8,782,084,481 26.43 2,320,746,124
2040 9,889,189,225 27.79 2,748,211,429
2050 11,135,860,028 29.22 3,254,412,872
2075 14,984,127,319 33.14 4,966,253,886
This work was supported in part by the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission under
grant number NRC-27-09-310. This study has been inspired by the extenssive work in this
area by my late father Dr. Ali Kettani (1941 – 2001), to whom I dedicate this manuscript
Just keep in mind that these are NOT by any means current statistics. Won’t it be interesting to see the comparisons in the future?
NOTE: the third set of facts…..annual growth rate of 6% versus 0.9% for total U.S. And this is from the 2000 Census.
http://www.allied-media.com/AM/
* 7 million in the U.S.; 1 million in Canada.
* Larger than Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland & Sweden.
* Annual growth rate of 6% versus 0.9% for total U.S.
* Interaction between Indigenous and Immigrant Muslims is limited.
* Same size community as Hispanics 25 years ago.
Zogby International, August 2000 U.S. Census Data 2000
But hey, you all believe what you want to believe.
I have a graphic here http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/09/fertility_rates_of_muslim_and_nonmuslim_countries.html of fertility rates for almost all countries of the world taken from the CIA World Factbook. Niger does come close to 8.1 with 7.75.
Since 80% of Niger is Muslim it could easily be that the Muslim fertility rate is 8.75 while the 20% Christians and other natives only have a rate of 3.875 which averages out to 7.75 for the whole nation. The 8.1 doesn’t look so unreachable now does it?
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5%, 900.000 people are muslim in Holland, not 1.000.000.
and in the EU is just 17.000.000 from the 502.000.000 people muslim, that’s 3.39% of the EU population.
….44,138,000 people are muslim in europe. that’s 6%.
For Russia it is now, 16.000.000 muslims and in 2040 it will be 18.000.000.
That is 12% of a population tath will grow to 150.000.000 people.
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Whilst the 8.1 children for France is unlikely to be accurate as a national average figure, it may have been taken from a particular region of France.
In any case this article is flawed. It compares birth rates and mortality rates of middle-eastern less developed countries to highly developed western countries like France and the UK where families can not only afford to have more children are also encouraged to have more children and given financial incentives by the state in child welfare benefits.
It’s obvious that muslims are going to take full advantage of this and have larger families, (when they are already in their native countries well above the western indigenous national average). There is certainly some statistical trend evidence in the UK* at least to show a rapid population growth in some sections of the muslim ethnic communities over the last decade.
The bottom line is, if this statistical trend continues and the western indigenous birth rates remain low to static, we’ll have a radical shift in demographics in a few decades unless something isn’t done to halt this trend.
source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/20833-muslim-population-rising-10-times-faster-than-rest-society.html, The Times, Office for National Statistics.
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“Fertility”……..Sounds to be like you are trying to scare women into having abortions. My two pregnancies were wonderful experiences. What is up with these scare tactics and why are they on this thread? Are you Muslim? Trying to scare non-Muslims into not reproducing?
If I have taken your comments wrong please explain. I am only informing you on how I understand your text.
Allah
You all are assuming a “constant definition” of birth rate (i.e. live birth and infant mortality). In fact that is not the case. The World Health Organization has a definition, but the countries often prefer and use their own definition (e.g. Cuba) to make themselves look better.
It is reasonable to assume that infant mortality rates in Europe with Moslim and non-Moslim are the same. But there is an additional factor of immigration. The UK had an additional million (almost) Moslim immigrants between 2001 and 2011.
The conclusion likely remains. It is only the time table that is called into question.
The question is not whether if Muslims are having 8.1 children per family or 7.9 children per family. The question is whether if they are increasing in proportion relative to the rest of the population, whether if this trend can be sustained, and whether if Muslims will be assimilated into Western culture or not.
Judging from present data, Muslims ARE increasing as a proportion of the European population. It is UNCLEAR whether if this trend can be sustained. And judging from present data, Muslims are NOT being assimilated into Western culture.
Agreed. What is worse, is the rate increase is increasing. To take the UK example, between 1961 and 2001 the Moslim population went from almost zero to 1.8 million, in 40 years. Whereas it increased by 1 million more in the 10 years from 2001-2011.
The average age of the Moslim population is much younger, with 1/4 being under 18, while the average non Moslim is over 50, presaging further disparity over the next 25 years.
The worrying thing though is that politically Moslims hit far above their weight. The Polishpopulation in the UK is almost the same as the Moslim, with little political clout. The Moslims, due to a propensity to political violence and terrorism are treated with kid loves by the authorities. (While the numbers involved in terror is low, it is more than the other groups together).
The Moslim problem is the coming European civil wars of the 21century. The first ones being the wars in Yugoslavia, largely fought to try to force the Moslims back into Albania.
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[…] En är att muslimer förökar sig så snabbt att de är en tickande islamisk demografisk bomb. Se http://www.goddiscussion.com/69608/islamophobia-is-the-height-of-common-sense-says-stop-islamisation-of-europe-but-expert-says-it-is-the-worlds-biggest-myth/, https://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/. […]
Agree totally with people with common sense, even though the numbers in the video weren’t accurate (which is not verifiable by us here), the problem is that Muslim makes more children than Europeans, that they have no intention of integrating.
You have to understand a simple demographic rule: population grow exponentially, not linearly. If a French makes one child and a Muslim (French or not) makes 3 children, then it’s 3 times more and it works the same with 100 000 making 300 000 children. Then French are outnumbered by a rate of X 3. These children will ave children and guess who will have more chance to produce more children: 3 individuals or 1 individual ?
The theory states that, as it is exponential, it multiply in no time. 50 year is even conservative as an estimate.
In my home town, in 20 years , the change has been dramatic. When I was in college (in the 90ties), the Muslim students were a tiny minority, maybe 10 or 20 out of 1000 people. I happened to visit the same college last year: 70% of the college students are Muslim (at least were born Muslims) !
In means 2 things: the scholarship rate might have grown fro the Muslim born population, the non-Muslim students might just have emigrated to other schools in order to flee the phenomenon, or simply, a huge birth explosion has happened and it’s continuing exponentially.
The problem is not that European don’t make enough children, the less people there are the better it is for employment, housing, environmental impact and resources. The problem is that religious archaism push Muslims to make many children, while on a political and demographic aspect, a lot of them know they will eventually control the land in which they are the majority.
Wake up people, this how Islam expanded since its the 7th century, by military and ideological conquest, invasion and colonization by birthrate.
If they were peaceful, good neighbors, with low criminality rates, with no fanatics and terrorists elements and none of them would try to impose their middle ages customs to us, it wouldn’t be a problem. But read the news, and look around you, who kills for religion ? Who shoots a little girl in the head to show her to behave as a salve, who desecrate Buddhist temples, churches, century old tombs ? Who put bombs all over the world killing innocents, who tries to impose their sectarian rules to people ?
This problem is a huge one, completely kept silent by our nice politicians who are scared to even contemplate the problem.
“Agree totally with people with common sense, even though the numbers in the video weren’t accurate (which is not verifiable by us here), the problem is that Muslim makes more children than Europeans […]” (ellfy-up)
Many errors here.
*”Muslims” not “Muslim”
*opposing Muslims in Europe and Europeans is meaningless, because many Muslims in Europe are both Muslim and European
*”people with common sense” do not say that “Muslim makes more children than Europeans”, because any people with common sense see that is meaningless (see above)
*the numbers in the video are not accurate
*the numbers in the video are not accurate and it is verifiable by us here
*in Europe, Muslims do not make more children than whole population, because they are part of it
*in Europe, Muslims do not make more children than non Muslims (there is more than ten time non Muslims than Muslims, which birth rate is not more than ten time the birth rate of non Muslims)
“If a French makes one child and a Muslim (French or not) makes 3 children, then it’s 3 times more”
Indeed. But this does not help. How many Muslims in France? How many children do they make? How many non Muslims in France? How many children do they make?
“French are outnumbered by a rate of X 3.”
What is a rate of outnumber by? What are your evidence that “French are outnumbered by a rate of X 3”?
“50 year is even conservative as an estimate.”
An estimate of what?
“In my home town, in 20 years , the change has been dramatic.”
Which town?
The town where he lives doesn’t really matter; it could be almost any town in France. The fact that you question what he’s saying indicates that you have never set foot in France in your life.
You are right in one thing; the film exaggerates the situation. But if you wants some facts, in the UK in 1960 the Moslim population was 104,000; by 2001 census there were 1.8 million Moslims. Ten years later in in the 2011 census the Moslim population had increased to almost 2.9 million.
Overall in the UK 19% are under 16. In the Moslim population the same figure is 34%.
This same pattern of Islamic occupation of non-Moslim territory is repeated all across Europe.
“The town where he lives doesn’t really matter” (Siflar)
Actually it does matter. If ellfy-up is talking about a town in Poland is not the same as a town in Pakistan.
“it could be almost any town in France”
I didn’t know there were college in “almost any town in France”. Tell me more about that.
“The fact that you question what he’s saying indicates that you have never set foot in France in your life.”
The fact that I did not question what ellfy-up is saying, but rather asked for more data, indicate that you do not master the English language.
“You are right in one thing; the film exaggerates the situation.”
A good point for you. Would you agree that the film make false claim? Would you agree that the film is more of a hindrance than a help toward the actual islamisation of Europe?
“But if you wants some facts, in the UK in 1960 the Moslim population was 104,000; by 2001 census there were 1.8 million Moslims. Ten years later in in the 2011 census the Moslim population had increased to almost 2.9 million.
Overall in the UK 19% are under 16. In the Moslim population the same figure is 34%.
This same pattern of Islamic occupation of non-Moslim territory is repeated all across Europe.”
Evidence?
Expecially, could you show me evidence that number of Muslims in Poland increased from 1.8 M in 2001 to 2.9 M in 2011 (or increased by 50%, if this is what you want to say)? Could you show me evidence that 34% of Muslims in Bulgaria are under 16?
Please notice that your last sentence is droping “Islamic occupation” and “non-Moslim territory” phrases out of nowhere.
If I were you, I would not try to correct the English of other contributors; especially as they are obviously foreigners, and you make a basic grammatical errors yourself.
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If I had the equipment and know-how I would remake this ridiculous video from the point of early Americans fear-mongering over Irish immigrants. “By 1900 50% of Americans will be of Irish descent. Are you prepared to eat potatoes with EVERY meal?!”
Could you also make a scare monger film for the UK? You could start with the scare-mongers that said in 1970 that Moslim population would go from a few thousand to millions and then continue with the scare-mongers who said after the 2001 census that the Moslim population would almost increase by 50% in a decade. Then you can show the scare-mongers who said we’d have Sharia Courts legal under English Law….. hang on a minute…. they were right! All the above has happened.
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“Since the early 2000s France has consistently topped European rankings. After two decades of decline, in the 1970s-80s, the fertility rate started picking up again in the late 1990s. Since then the country has registered scores just short of the mythical threshold of 2.1 children per woman, which would secure a steady population. Its fertility rate in 2014 was 2.01.”
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