A number of the girls I’ve dated have believed in what I’d call a “generic God”. I have to wonder how common this is, and how common this is becoming. It’s a belief that a God exists, created the universe, wants people to act morally, grants an afterlife, and has a timetable for when people die. But, this generic God isn’t necessarily associated with Christianity or any other religion and it isn’t dogmatic.
My current girlfriend actually has these beliefs. She was raised Catholic, and a number of months ago, she set out to read the Bible because she wanted to see what it was all about, and what so many Americans base their lives on. She managed to read through the New Testament, and the first six (or so) books of the Old Testament. She wasn’t that impressed. She’s surprised that people think the Bible is divinely inspired. She says many of the initial stories in the Old Testament have no real point – they are often strange and contain no lesson for the reader. She also said that the Old Testament God behaves “like a tyrant”. However, she believes in a kind of generic God. This generic God isn’t the same as the God of the Bible. I have to admit, it’s a slippery concept to actually debate or test. The generic God doesn’t have to answer for any of the actions of “God” in the Bible, nor is there any belief that Christianity is the only way to God.
She doesn’t necessarily believe that prayer has any effect on the world – which means that studies showing the non-effect of prayer doesn’t say anything about the existence of God. In fact, she thinks that if God has a plan for the world, then prayer must be ineffective because petitioning God to answer a prayer would necessarily be a deviation from God’s plan. If God thought that you should: be healed, get a new car, or whatever, then He would make it happen; prayer is irrelevant.
We haven’t really gotten into why God would allow atrocities – ranging from the holocaust to serial killers to Josef Fritzl. Or why God would permit disease to afflict humanity, and if disease was part of God’s plan, why humanity would be allowed to find cures.
At the heart of it is the fact that she likes to believe in a higher power. She said that if she lives her whole life believing in God, then dies and there is no God or afterlife, that it would still be a good thing to believe because it would be a happier life to believe in all those things. (My own view on that is that I would prefer to know the truth, even if it was a less-happy belief.) In this case, it comes down to an issue of the burden of proof. From my perspective, I don’t think there’s any good evidence for God, or a loving God in particular. The burden of proof is on the believer to show that God does exist, rather than the non-believer to prove God doesn’t exist – which isn’t even theoretically possible (at best, we can make God an entirely superfluous explanation). From her perspective, I can’t prove God doesn’t exist, or that there isn’t an afterlife. She wants to believe they do exist, and, as long as there is a window of possibility, she will believe it because she can and because it feels good. She’s also lived her whole life believing in God, and she misses some of the ritual of belief.
Now, there’s nothing about her belief that would cause her to do anything irrational like I see in fundamentalists (like fundamentalists who blindly support Israel because “it’s what God wants”, believe that God is directing them to a particular course of action, or claim that we don’t even need to think about global warming because only God can destroy the earth or avoid making decisions because ‘it’s in God’s hands’). As long as her beliefs don’t make her skirt personal responsibility or make irrational decisions, then I don’t need her to think exactly the same as I do.
One of the snags is that she wants children who believe in God like she does. She wants them to go to church – despite the fact that she doesn’t really believe in Christianity. She likes to pray because it gives her a minute to think about her friends and what their needs are (not because she believes God will actually answer prayers). She also started going to mass recently – not because the teaching is divine, but because the priest gives a little nugget of wisdom to think about. I’m not quite sure what to think about it exactly. I would feel silly sitting in church listening to a priest/preacher teach something that I know isn’t true, plus I often see them making factual errors. To me, most religious teachings just sound like a bunch of fiction that people made up because it feels good to believe it. At the same time, if we did have kids, I wouldn’t want to be that Dad that stays home when mom took the kids to church. I remember families like that when I was growing up, and I always hated that. Admittedly, I was a Christian at the time.
(All of this makes me think about the Christians who claim that atheism is just something people believe because it’s the easy way to do what we want. Well, atheism is not the easy way when it comes to relationships and living in a predominantly theist nation.)
The whole thing has caught me a little off-guard. Assuming we got married and had kids, we could end up going to church. She would believe in God, but not really in Christianity. I wouldn’t believe in God or religion. Yet, we’d be showing up to church every Sunday? Are there other people like that? I understand that there are probably some “Christians” who go to church as part of a program to “climb the social ladder”. I also realize there are churches that aren’t Christian (so “church” doesn’t necessarily mean “Christian”). A friend of mine who is Buddhist goes to a church which has a series of speakers from different religions. I’m probably less opposed to that – if for no other reason than the fact that I like to hear what people believe. Although, I would probably still be irritated by the stream of feel-good fiction supported by zero evidence, which exists in all religions.
Personally, I don’t really have a need for feel-good fiction. Some people do. I have to wonder about the ability of atheism and agnosticism to really make much headway with people who hold beliefs in a generic God and enjoy believing it. At least these people are unlikely to stand in the way of science (say, in the evolution-creation debate) or dogmatically assert that homosexuality is wrong and we need to support Israel or invade a country because “God told me”. I can’t help but wonder how much “generic religion” is on the rise in the US, whether people continue to practice religious ritual because it feels good and gives people a community, and whether people are showing up to Christian churches out of belief in a generic God.
It sounds like your girlfriend holds to a form of Deism. I actually know a lot of people who were raised Christian or Jewish who hold similar beliefs – they don’t think about religion much, think fundamentalists are at best silly and at worst scary, don’t really care if you’re atheist or not, but like the idea that there’s a “plan” for the world, rather than it being an unplanned mess driven mostly by human action and quasi-random environmental events. Least offensive “people of faith” that I know, because they never try to convince you that you’re wrong and as long as you don’t try to convince them that they’re wrong, everything’s cool.
As for this: I wouldn’t believe in God or religion. Yet, we’d be showing up to church every Sunday? Are there other people like that? I got to mass every Sunday with my wife and son, but I’ve been an atheist for years now – well before my son was born. I was raised Catholic, and I think its important for a few reasons. One, I think my son needs to have a good understanding of what religion is to make his own choices as he gets older – I’m a bit afraid that if I leave him without any kind of “religious inoculation” that once he gets into school he could end up getting pulled into some of the more extreme religions. Giving him a grounding in a set of religious teachings should help him be able to evaluate them for himself when he’s older (it’s a “well, it worked for me” bias, I guess). And I don’t want to be the guy whose wife goes off to Church with the kids while he stays home or goes out for coffee or whatever – I’ve always been annoyed by that as well.
And honestly, we’ve found a nice church associated with a college campus that does a nice job for me. The ritual and whatnot is silly, but I enjoy the sermons – which mostly stay away from mystical mumbo-jumbo and focus on the social justice aspects of Christianity at the particular church we attend. There are better ways I could spend an hour on Sunday mornings, but there are certainly worse ways too.
Sounds like a loose form of Deism.
My wife is somewhat similar. She goes to a UCC church, but her beliefs don’t completely jive with everything the church teaches. I go to the church and listen to the sermons, I certainly do not agree with everything, but the tend to be very anti-fundamentalist, so there is some stuff I ado agree with. I know that our kids will be brought up in the church, but I also know that they will think for themselves.
You might try a Unitarian or Universalist church. UU churches espouse a “liberal faith” each person defines for him or her self. They are much more liberal and less formal in the western US than in the east. Some UUs are actually trinitarians, some unitarian christians, some secular Jews, some deists, some agnostics, and some atheist humanists. Among them are probably other classifications I haven’t encountered.
Full disclosure: I’m a former Unitarian, now atheist, who finds the whole religious approach no longer of value. A UU minister once told me he often meets people who describe themselves as UU backsliders.
Yeah, i don’t think this sounds too far out of the ordinary. My wife’s beliefs are kind of similar. She was raised as a Lutheran, and her parents would be considered evangelical Lutherans, if there is such a thing. I don’t think she had ever questioned her beliefs, or had a desire or need to, until she got to college and took some world history classes where they went into pretty good detail of ancient religions and religions in other cultures. That was the first time she really stood back and thought to herself “hmm, wow – knowing all this, I really don’t see how Christianity can be the only way to God, and therefore heaven.”
When faced with a statement like that, I would like to think people mostly fall into the following reactions:
1) Christianity (or whatever belief they have) is right. Too bad, so sad, everyone else, throughout history and across the world are wrong.
2) Well that doesn’t seem right. Maybe all religions have their own truths, and maybe the point isn’t that one religion is right, but maybe they all are in some way.
3) Wow, this is a crock of shit. Religions are obviously man-made creations.
I think most people reading this site, myself included, fall into category 3. My wife, though, wasn’t really ready or comfortable giving up on everything she believed as a child, and decided to go with #2. She’s happy there, and she’s fine with me being atheist – she is not scared that a vengeful god is looking down on me with disdain, but she believes I will be fine in the afterlife because she knows I am a good person. Furthermore, she’s just not really interested in thinking about and debating god, religions, theology or whatever, like I am. She’s happy with her “spiritual view” and content that people taking whatever path they choose to righteousness is good enough.
Well, I have to say I’m a bit surprised to read the comments by atheists who go to church. Now, I haven’t been an atheist for a very long time (only a couple of years) and perhaps I may change my view in the future but at this point I’d have to say that there would be no way I’d allow my child to go to church. I do not go, nor do I have any plans to go. I’m also fortunate in that my husband doesn’t want to go to church, either. He’s not an atheist himself per se, rather he likes to say he worships Mother Earth (he’s a mountain man), but his family are fundies to the core. They’ve already been at us about whether or not we’ll allow Kate to go to church. My answer to them has been that throughout her upbringing, discussions about all religions will be the norm in our home, and if there comes a time where she asks to go to church, I won’t hold her back. I intend to support her no matter what she decides when she gets old enough to make those sorts of decisions for herself.
I also kinda wonder about these non-christian-god-worshippers… as I read about your girlfriend, Tiny, I kept thinking to myself, “if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…” It seems to me not to be the most honest way of living since from all outward appearances, she would be assumed to be a Christian. Perhaps that might not be the best example to be setting for a child?
I recently read something that seems to explain why women cling to gods/religion more than men do (which is why there are more male atheists than female). It’s a long piece but it makes a lot of sense. Now the hard part is getting the women you date to understand they can get what they’re seeking without the imaginary friends and churches.
http://suicidegirls.com/news/culture/23567/
@buffy – yeah, i saw a list a while ago (I think maybe in one of Michael Shermer’s books?) of the 6 greatest predictors of if someone is religious or Christian, including things like “grew up in a religious house” and “parents were religious”. One of the 6 predictors was simply “is female”
I’m with debg. I think as much as possible you shouldn’t live a lie. If you are in a conflicting relationship, then you have to make all sorts of concessions and attending church is perhaps better than not.
The drive/need to attend church, especially when children are in the picture, is probably not so much to expose them to culture, but it is the promotion of the belief that morals and a happier life come from abiding by religious standards. As a parent, you want to start your kids off on the right path, and if you believe that they would be better off with this experience, then you provide it to them. As for me, I think it promotes falsities, so I avoid it with my kids.
I got me an atheist wife who was raised atheist while I was raise fundie and still have fundie parents and siblings. I have a hard time convincing my family that she is not evil, and a harder time convincing her that my family is not crazy, but at least I don’t have to waste my time in church!
Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, I feel kind of conflicted about the idea of going to church again. Although, there are some fairly liberal churches and some that aren’t even closely tied to any religion (like the one my Buddhist friend goes to). I looked up the Universist church that I had heard about a while back, and despite some of the news coverage they got, they’ve apparently disappeared as of 2006.
I also wouldn’t want my kids to have a reaction at some point where they suddenly discover that I don’t actually believe the things they thought I believed.
I’m actually don’t have too many problems with deism. I still think they’re wrong, but at least people can’t become over-reliant on God with a deistic belief.
I’ll throw in a little more anecdotal evidence about relationships and god/church. My parents were divorced when I was 2 years old (and my mom died when i was 16), so I’ve only really learned about this in the past couple years from my dad. My mom grew up in an evangelical household, and remained a very strong and committed Christian her whole life, although not necessarily evangelical or fundamentalist, fortunately. My dad is atheist now, and I’m pretty sure he was when they were married also, or at least he didn’t care about religion and church or anything like that.
Anyway, when they were married, I think he didn’t give any concessions to her church-going ways. He was the stereotypical guy who stayed at home on sunday mornings while she got dressed up and went to church. There were a lot of other things wrong with their marriage, but Dad has told me recently that he wishes he had been more understanding of her faith and it may have helped out their marriage if he had some relatively simple, and mostly painless things like going to church with her.
So, if you have a significant other who is religious, and you love them enough to work through that, then it may be in both of your self interests for you to shut up occasionally and suck it up, get dressed up, and go sit and listen to singing and chanting for an hour a week.
I suppose I can see where Joe L. is coming from in so far as the old adage goes that the more maneuverable craft gives way, but it still irks me that the onus of understanding – and of compromise – should lay on the atheist.
In a perfect world, the Christian spouse would no more expect the atheist spouse to go to church than the other way around.
I think your post touches on an important point: For many people life only makes sense if there is some kind of plan. If there isn’t, you have to make that plan yourself, which is much harder, and may fail. Remember the joke about the Irish atheist? An Irish atheis, the saying goes, is one who prays to the Lord to let him believe in Him.
When I was 12 yrs old I thought religion would soon go away because it was no longer needed. At that time I had a keen interest in cosmology, evolution etc. and was sure that soon all secrets of life, the universe and everything were unveiled. So everything could be explained, no god needed here.
Later I was some kind of deist. In high school we learned about pantheism through the writings of Goethe and Schiller (I’m German). The idea that God was not some kind of bearded man hovering above but an integral part of nature appealed to me. For a while I thought I was religious, but gradually I have taken the agnostic turn.
On the rare occasions I went to church I found the music fine (a lot of sacred music is, and communal singing is), the sermons were sometimes interesting, sometimes not, but I noticed I stopped to speak the Credo first (because it would have been a lie – I can’t say I believe in something when I have no idea what that something is), and recently the Our father remained unvoiced.
When I got married, an atheist friend of mine came to church – he is very articulate in his disbelief, but equally articulate in his repect for other people’s beliefs, norms and feelings. Which in turn, I think, is important fpr a “mixed” marriage.
Probably being openly agnostic or atheist is much easier socially than in the US.
Sorry,
Obviously, Janice is looking for an answer. Jesus loves her, but it’s not about her: it’s about Jesus. If she’s reading the Bible not for truth, but for selfish ambition, then where does she think it’s going to take her? If she wants to know her Creator and her Savior, then the truth (Bible) should set her free. If she read the Bible, it says, “the prayers of a RIGHTEOUS man avails much.” How are we righteous, through Christ. Is that true faith? If we have doubts if there even exists a savior. Have you stolen anything? I have. Have you ever lied? I have. If I stood in a court of law, I would be convicted. A good “judge” would have to punish me to the full extent of the law. It doesn’t change the fact that JESUS came so we maybe made new. TRANSFORMED.
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Some verses to think about!
but get in a good church, churches are full of people, and yes people do hurt sometimes, but don’t let people get you in the way of knowing and loving Christ Jesus
God is not happy with being known as the generic God. The God of the BIlbe is much more than that. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
Anyone who does not understand the Bible and says it is not inspired is really fooled by Satan! The Bible is not only masterly put together, but its like a puzzle that fits perfectly with each Book! To understand REV for example, one has to have a good understanding of the Old Testament!
God does this on purpose no doubt because we are commanded in the NT to study to show thyself approved/as well as compare Scripture with Scripture.
The Bible message throughout is really about a Kingdom and that King who will rule literally for 1000 years (see REV) will be Jesus Christ! Anyway who believes the Bible is outdated, or that God is dead, or that things will get better and better are not studying God’s Word. And for those who speak English – the Authorized 1611 is God’s inspired Word! Not these new translations that water down the diety of Christ and seek to pervert God’s Word!
Remember that Jesus said we must be born again! There is only one way to HEaven and we cant earn it – its a free gift and that gift is faith in Jesus Christ alone!
Find a church that teaches the Bible as the infallible word of God and the final authority, Churches like Catholic do not! They are based on man made traditions and many that are pagan traditions! Ask a Catholic what happened to their 2nd commandment warning of worshipping idols! One will find that 9 and 10 was split up from 10 so the Catholic church would still have 10! Total deception!
But then, just a sign of the times when churches dont teach the truth! Read the commendations and condemnations of the 7 churches in REV! If your church is guilty of these- find a church that is not!
It’s one thing to claim the Bible (or the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, etc) is the word of god. It’s another to show it. I have plenty of people from all different religions making claims. It’s always the second part that religious people can’t backup.