Besides the problems young earth creationism has with science in general (cosmology, radioisotope dating, genetic diversity, etc), another problem for young earth creationism is archaeology. On numerous occasions, I’ve heard preachers claim that archaeology validates ancient Biblical stories. No doubt, they’re listening to information passed on to them (and filtered through) Christian media and social networks.
A number of Christians have calculated the beginning of the world – getting a date around 4000 B.C. I’ve even done these calculations myself, and come up with a similar date. The problem is this: when you calculate it, you end up with the global flood occurring around 2350 BC, but historical records and carbon-dating show civilizations going back much earlier than 2350 BC. If the Bible were literally true, the first civilizations wouldn’t be seen until hundreds of years after the 2350 BC date. But, the first Egyptian dynasty began around 3100 BC and the history of their civilization continued uninterrupted until modern times. We know which Pharaohs ruled, how long they ruled, and which dynasties they were a part of. This information comes from two sources: historical records and radiocarbon dating, both of which agree with each other. Comparisons of the timelines shows that the Biblical flood would’ve occurred around the fifth and sixth Egyptian dynasties.
Here’s a comparison of Biblical the timeline to the dates given by archaeologists (click on the image to enlarge):
Links (for verification):
Christian site and a Biblical Timeline 4000 BC – 2343 BC
Christian site with a Biblical Timeline beginning in 4004 BC
Egyptian Timeline of Dynasties (beginning in 3100 BC)
Egyptian Kings Timeline (beginning in 3050 BC)
Now, I should add that creationist sites have their own theories about this discrepancy. I’ve seen some bizarre theories (e.g. one claimed that the Egyptian pyramids were constructed before the flood, and then several hundred years after the flood, the civilization resumed – somehow retaining its former culture, religion, government structure, construction techniques, and no archeologists caught on). AnswersInGenesis gives a couple different answers. One is simply “trust man or trust God” (translation: there’s no way we can explain this). Another AIG explanation which I had read a while back, said that carbon-dating is wrong, that the historical records of egypt were written by a pagan priest (i.e. unreliable?), and claims that several Pharaohs were ruling at the same time (but provides no evidence of that). They never attempt to spell it out any deeper than that – which is good for their side considering that they need to either eliminate a thousand years of history, or jam approximately fifteen hundred years of Egyptian history into around five hundred years to make their idea work*. Additionally, there’s stuff going on in other parts of the world, as well. Archaeologists aren’t going out of their way to make-up stuff to discredit young earth creationism. It’s even possible that their timelines would have matched up nicely with Biblical dates. But – they don’t, which means it’s spin-time for creationists.
The historical world population doesn’t square up with the literal Biblical story, either. According to Biblical sources, there would have been millions of Jews leaving Egypt, so assuming a global population of 40 million around that time (~1350 BC), and comparing that to global population estimates later in history (an estimated 200+ million by 0 AD), would require an incredibly high population growth between 2350 BC and 1350 BC (5,000,000 fold increase in 1,000 years), and a much lower population growth after 1350 BC – usually less than 5 fold population growth within any 1,000 year period between 1350 BC and 1800 AD.
(*This is a pretty common theme with Creationists – constantly arguing that the conventional dates or science is wrong, and things happened much, much faster than they do today. But, hey, all their stuff works out nicely as long as you’re willing to accept: ancient records are wrong, carbon-dating doesn’t work, light used to travel faster, genetic diversity increased faster in the past, human populations grew faster in the past, radioactive decay used to occurred millions of times faster in the past, the continents used to move much faster than they do today, mountains grew much faster than they do today, …)
I just found your site through Skeptico, and I really like it so far. That timeline chart is very handy (and should be very revealing to any biblical literalists out there). I love the idea that humans were able to reproduce at some amazing rate (I’ve heard Christians claim that’s why people in the bible lived so much longer — god artificially kept them alive longer so they could continue having children) and populate the far reaches of the world within just a few years. But I hadn’t heard that mountains developed faster and that light traveled faster…there’s definitely a lot to learn about physics from the Bible!
I hadn’t heard that mountains developed faster
Yeah, there are a lot of mountains that contain fossils. The creationists want to explain the existence of fossils through the global flood, but because the fossils are embedded in mountainsides and the rock strata is crunched together under the mountains – they have to claim that these mountains were formed *after* the global flood. John Morris of the (young earth creationist) Institute for Creation Research says it this way:
Note: The link above says that conventional geologists claim that all mountain ranges in the world were formed within the past five million years. I’m unsure where he got his information from, but I certainly don’t see geologists saying that. (Is anyone surprised that a creationist misrepresents the view of conventional geology in a way that makes them look ridiculous?) According to wikipedia:
light traveled faster
This comes up whenever creationists are trying to explain why we can see light from distant stars. By conventional measurements, it would take millions or billions of years for light from distant stars to reach us. One of the common creationist explanations for this is that the speed of light was once much, much faster (sometimes millions of times faster).
There’s a very obvious point here that seems to have been missed. Creationists didn’t pull 4004 BC out of a hat and choose it for the beginning of the world. The date, like the Egyptian dates, is based on “historical records”–now compiled into our modern-day Bible.
What I’m wondering is, if the you’re using Egyptian records to try to disprove the biblical ones, why do you trust the Pharoahs but not the Jews?
Creationists didn’t pull 4004 BC out of a hat and choose it for the beginning of the world. The date, like the Egyptian dates, is based on “historical records”–now compiled into our modern-day Bible.
As far as I can tell, no one claims that any of the books of the Old Testament were written earlier than 1400 BC (and some claim much later dates) – one thousand years after the supposed global flood. You call them “historical records”, but you really have to claim that these stories were passed down faithfully – sometimes through single individuals – such Adam, Noah, Abraham and also through Jewish lore when they were slaves in Egypt for hundreds of years. Or, alternatively, you can claim that they were divinely inspired and accurate stories of what actually occurred. I would categorize neither of these situations as “historical records”. Just like I wouldn’t consider the Mormon myths about America as “historical record” – despite the claim that Joseph Smith read them on golden tablets left by an ancient American.
Further, the Jewish “historical records” are heavily tied up in religious teachings and the story of human origins – this makes them primarily religious documents, and makes them dubious as accurate historical records. The Old Testament, then, is not comparable to Egyptian records of who ruled, how long they ruled, what they did (e.g. unite the Upper and Lower kingdoms of Egypt), and how they died – but the Old Testament is much more similar to stories about Egyptian religious stories about Set, Isis, and other gods (which I also consider to be unreliable). Further, the information about Egyptian records is verified by archeology. Many of the later Pharoahs have giant tombs (aka Pyramids), and the artifacts inside can be carbon-dated to 3000-2000 BC.
Additionally, most of the information on that timeline doesn’t involve Egyptian civilization. Hence, I’m not relying solely on Egyptian historical records. Those who believe the Biblical timeline are relying solely on its “historical record”.
The archeology of 1,000,000 people walking out of Egypt following Moses has never been explained either. They seemed to have left no trace of their times wandering the desert, and more importantly, the physical act of 1,000,000 people walking across the middle east is pretty mind boggling.
Let’s suppose that people walked with 5 feet of space in between themselves and their neighbors. Single file the line is 5,000,000 feet long or 947 miles. Double file the line is 475 miles long, and if they walked if they walked in lines 25 people wide, the line out of Egypt is still 38 miles long. The front of the line would have to start walking 10 hours ahead of the end of the line.
TinyFrog:
Although Jewish tradition credits Moses for the first five books of the Bible, it’s not unlikely that much of what he compiled were records handed down from his forefathers–such as Abraham and even Noah. Some commentators think that the word often translated “generations” in the genealogy sections of Genesis could be translated “record” or “book,” and indicates that each patriarch kept careful records of his own family history and of significant events. Because of the tribal nature of ANE society, it stands to reason that people would have made a special effort to accurately preserve their family history. Its unsurprising we don’t have any such original documents today, given the great age they’d be.
Biblical locations and events, not just Egyptian ones, have been verified by archeology and other historical sources, so your trust in Egyptian history but not biblical history seems arbitrary. It’s especially odd to me considering that the Egyptians are universally known to have erased and altered their own records when it was politically expedient to do so. Biblical history portrays events that even makes the Jews look bad. That lends some credit to its accuracy. Whether the OT is “tied up” in religious teachings, as you assert, also seems an arbitrary objection compared with Egyptian history, which is also saturated with the religious beliefs of their culture, including the belief that Pharaoh was a god. Furthermore, the OT does, in fact, give detailed descriptions about “who ruled, how long they ruled, what they did, and how they died.” It appears you think it does not. Have you actually read the Old Testament?
I admittedly believe the Bible to be inspired, and I think it’s true and accurate for a variety of reasons–but that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in seeing people put it to the historical test. I recognize the discrepancy with Egyptian history, but I truly think your trust in the pharaohs is misplaced.
Elbogz, it would be silly to have a group of over a million people walk in either single file or 25 wide. The Israelites walked grouped by their tribes and used a banner and trumpet system to organize themselves on marching days.
My point being, that one million people occupy a heck of a lot of land, even marching in military formation. Your comment about them being in tribes is probably accurate. However, remember they had to all move though where God parted the Red Sea.
People, when telling the story also never take into account human factors such as 1 million people going to the bathroom twice a day. They don’t include how much land is involved when you include tents and animals. There are also times where Moses spoke to the people. It doesn’t say he spoke to the tribe leaders and they went back and spoke to the people.
And, for all these events, we’ve yet to find archeology that supports the 40 years wandering though the desert. If you look at the American Southwest you find Indian artifacts everywhere. It’s just hard to comprehend how all this happened without a trace.
I admittedly believe the Bible to be inspired, and I think it’s true and accurate for a variety of reasons
Well, I have been planning to do some posts on the Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled (or supposedly fulfilled) at some point, too. Should be interesting. I’ve looked at a number of them already, and wasn’t particularly impressed.
but that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in seeing people put it to the historical test. I recognize the discrepancy with Egyptian history, but I truly think your trust in the pharaohs is misplaced.
Yes, I realize there was some games Pharaohs played with historical records (like avoiding recording defeats in battle), but, as I said, I don’t really need to rely on Egyptian records. There is plenty of information out there – about the Sumerians, Babylonians, the Indus valley, individual Middle-Eastern cities (e.g. that Jericho is one of the oldest cities – inhabited long before 2350 BC or even 4000 BC), etc – that doesn’t conform to Old Testament information.
Having the whole of humanity spring out of a single family a mere 4 thousand 300 years ago (2350ish BC) would surely leave all of us with VERY closely related DNA.
Lt. Horatio Caine would get a blood sample analysed of the young latino murder victim and the results would come back “Jewish”!
Remember that the first big weakness of the flood story is that the whole thing was pointless. Man was still as sinful and wicked afterward. God failed to forsee this?
The second big weakness is the cruelty involved. Think of the small children and babies drowned. In what way did they deserve it, and why did they have to suffer such a terrifying death?
Having the whole of humanity spring out of a single family a mere 4 thousand 300 years ago (2350ish BC) would surely leave all of us with VERY closely related DNA.
Yes, I was thinking about addressing that at some point, too. Based on genetic studies (mutation rates and genetic diversity), and the Y-Chromosome (there was only one Y-chromosome after the flood; Noah passed on that one version to all of his sons, and all of humanity), we can back calculate how long ago the humanity’s “Y-chromosome Adam” existed. According to YECs, the “Y-chromosome Adam” should be Noah – approximately 4300 years ago. Genetic studies, on the other hand, come up with a very different result: based on the diversity of the Y-chromosome in humanity, the “Y-chromosome Adam” existed more than 60,000 years ago.
We can do something similar with mitochondrial DNA to figure out how long ago humanity’s “mitochondrial Eve” lived.
Archaeology
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tinyfrog, when you have a moment, can you email me please? I have a few questions and a request reguarding the timeline in this article. Great work here by the way.
A few quick notes:
The “descreasing speed of light” idea comes from the creationist philosophers Norman and Setterfield. All they had to do to “prove” their notion was to leave out any measurements that would upset their idea. They also lied that their work was approved by the Scientific Research Associates. Typical creationists.
N&S also claim that this claimed slowing of the speed of light affected radiocarbon dating, a conceit furthered by Baumgardner in support of the Flood myth. Evidently the heat generated by the motion of the continents somehow dissipated quite quickly, as did the primary and secondary radiation.
Radiocarbon dating shows that the destruction of Jericho during the Bibical Conquest of Canaan could not have happened; Jericho was destroyed much before the Conquest. Modern Bibical scholars agree that the Conquest was a fiction; see Dever in Biblical Archaeology review, Jul/Aug 1997.
Thanks for the interesting article.
The “trust man or trust God” link references an article by Larry Pierce that may be of interest. It documents some ancient sources that agree with the Biblical chronology, including one for the founding of Egyptian civilization. The link is as follows.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/peleg.asp#f2
It documents some ancient sources that agree with the Biblical chronology, including one for the founding of Egyptian civilization. The link is as follows.
I’ve learned to be rather skeptical of Answers in Genesis (based on past experience), but I looked up the article. Some comments on their article:
The year was 331 BC. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius at Gaugmela near Arbela, he journeyed to Babylon. Here he received 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans, which they claimed dated back to the founding of Babylon. If this was so, then that would place the founding of Babylon in 2234 BC
So, AIG is claiming that records of astronomical observations began 140 years after the flood, and Babylon was “founded” at that time? It seems really strange that entire nations (including Egypt as claimed below) were founded only a few generations after the flood supposedly happened. I would think you’d need more than a few dozen people to “found” a nation.
The Byzantine chronicler Constantinus Manasses (d. 1187) wrote that the Egyptian state lasted 1663 years. If correct, then counting backward from the time that Cambyses, king of Persia, conquered Egypt in 526 BC, gives us the year of 2188 BC for the founding of Egypt, about 60 years after the birth of Peleg.
According to wikipedia: “He was the author of a chronicle or historical synopsis of events from the creation of the world to the end of the reign of Nicephorus Botaniates (1081)” Since Manasses was writing from a Biblical perspective – i.e. using the Bible as a historical document, then it’s not really independent verification of Biblical history at all. Rather, Manasses used the Bible to construct a history of the world, and now AIG is using his history as “evidence” that the Bible was correct because they agree.
Additionally, 2188 BC would be less than two hundred years after the flood – when all but 8 people were killed. Just based on birthrates alone, I have a hard time believing that Egypt was “founded” less than two hundred years later.
Manasses claim of “1663 years” is contradicted by history, anyway.
I’m also wondering about the claim that Manasses was saying “1663 years” ended in 526 BC. Was AIG simply using this date because it was convenient to get them back to a few centuries after the flood? Besides, Persian rule ended 124 years later. Why say that the Egyptian state “lasted 1663 years” and then use 526 BC as it’s ending (even though Egypt later regained its independence). And was “1663″ supposed to mean 1663 unbroken years, or 1663 years intermittently throughout its history?
According to the 4th Century bishop and historian Eusebius of Caesarea, Egialeus, king of the Greek city of Sicyon, west of Corinth in Peloponnesus, began his reign in 2089 BC, 1313 years before the first Olympiad in 776 BC. If Eusebius is correct, then this king started to reign about 160 years after the birth of Peleg.
Egialeus was the supposed first king and founder of Sicyon. But, is AIG just picking out some dates that seem to occur slightly after their supposed Global flood? If ancient mythology had various founding dates of 2900 BC, 2600 BC, 2300 BC, and 2000 BC, would AIG ignore all the dates except the “2000 BC” date because it would fall in line with Biblical history, and ignore all the other dates because they don’t? That’s cherry picking to make their Biblical history look more objective. Also, the language “According to the 4th Century bishop and historian Eusebius of Caesarea”, makes me think other people place Egialeus at other dates.
I think it should be fairly obvious that AIG is cherry-picking stuff from ancient historians based on the facts that they could only come up with three examples, and also the fact that many historians disagree with those dates. Egyptian records, for example, go back to around 2900 BC. For obvious reasons, AIG decided to skip over that information.
I also disagree that this constitutes “ancient sources that agree with the Biblical chronology”. The fact that the Chaldeans had 1903 years of astronomical observations doesn’t mean it “agrees with the Biblical chronology” – it’s just a slim bit of information that doesn’t “contradict” Biblical history by beginning before the supposed flood date.
All this stuff about Egypt, Babylon, and a Greek city being founded a few generations after the flood is odd. Let’s say that there was a phenomenal growth in the human population (starting with an initial 8 people). By 2234 – a mere 120 years after this supposed flood, you’d have what? A couple hundred or a couple thousand people? Yet, AIG wants us to believe that everyone packed up their bags and traveled hundreds of miles to “found” a new nation? Now, cities can contain a lot of people. Why not just walk down the road a few miles and create a tiny village? That’s what people would do. Afterall, the populations sizes at that time were miniscule compared to how many people a city could hold. But, Cairo and Babylon are 800 miles apart and AIG wants us to believe that small bands of people just kept walking and walking until hundreds of miles of unpopulated land were between them?
I just wanted to offer a different way to read the genealogies of the book of Genesis. I doubted that man lived longer back then but I do believe the numbers given have meaning. They were too specific to have been just thrown out randomly it seemed.
Here’s my theory. The language was simpler back then and one word had many different meanings, (ok, thats true today to but I digress). I think when its talking about how old they were they mean how many generations carried that name.
Adam would have been the title of the leader of the tribe. His son would have taken over and so on. The Idea that Adam didn’t beget Seth until he was in his hundreds is ludicrous. More likely Seth’s father was in his teens when Seth was conceived. The tribe split and Seth was the split that continued to Moses time. If you count the number of years as generations instead, and you accept that back then most firstborn male children would have been conceived by teenagers, young teenagers, a little math creates a time for man from the first Adam that is close to the time Homo Sapiens(Modern) has been on the planet or roughly 250,000 years.
To clarify a bit, I do not mean that Seth was the name of the tribal leader up to Moses. There were more splits.
one more clarification, its been awhile since I did the math and I should have looked at those notes instead of trusting my memory. The first Adam would have been sometime after the last Ice Age. Sometime around when Cromagnon walked the earth. Could Cain’s decendants be there? He got a wife from somewhere and it certainly wasn’t one of his sisters.
I don’t know. It just seems to me that the bible wasn’t concerned with the origin of mankind. Only the Hebrew nation. Its almost like they did not consider anyone who wasn’t Jewish as human.
Its certainly strange that the Egyptians made slaves of them. If you follow the religiously accepted meaning of the genealogies it would be less than 500 years after the flood. Even based on my theory only seven thousand years would have passed since the flood. Could such enmity have developed in that amount of time. Ok, I guess in 7,000 years it could happen.
Where would that put the flood? Around 9,000 bc?
Did anything happen 10,000 years ago or so that correlates to a flood?
Ok, there were quite a few floods of a proportion large enough to seem to encompass the whole planet from the perspective of people hiding in a boat.
Check this site:
http://www.jrmooneyham.com/lostcv3.html
[...] (1) The Bible goes into quite a bit of detail about ancestral lineages, and how old people were when they gave birth to the subsequent generation. This allows us to calculate backwards and figure out when the global flood supposedly happened. According to the Bible, the date of the global flood ends up being around 2350 BC. This date is simply not realistic. Ancient civilizations go back earlier than that. Egypt, for example, has a series of dynasties leading back to 3000 BC. (See my post “Creationism versus Archeology”.) [...]